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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 21
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All NSW (General) (General) (General)  

Author
Wild Gravity : Barrenjoey
surfziggy
25-Feb-2015
10:46:35 AM
Can any one who's done this climb tell me what the anchors are at the top?
http://www.thecrag.com/climbing/australia/northern-beaches/southwest/route/15286885

Or do you have to continue up PWCB and then rap/walk off. Also if I want to solo TR it, is it easy to get to the top of it. Presume I have to find the anchors for PWCB and rap in first?

ajfclark
25-Feb-2015
11:09:14 AM
Both the route description on thecrag and on SydneyClimbing.com say continue up PWCB or carefully walk off to the right. That would make me think that there aren't (bolted) anchors and that you could walk (carefully) to the top from the right.

Did you mean is there a possibility of building a trad anchor there and what gear would you need?
martym
25-Feb-2015
11:54:41 AM
I'm sure I've top roped it - so there must be appropriate anchors. I love Tchaikovsky & Professor Wigginsworth loads of fun. All very run out. Wild Gravity is gnarly crimping.

It's a pretty easy scramble up the gully to the right.
Otherwise if you walk all the way to the end of the cliffline (about 500m) and there's a pretty obvoius track that then comes back over the top of the climbs - follow that to the end and you should find the arete.

Beware of ticks.

tnd
25-Feb-2015
12:57:35 PM
ajfclark is right. It continues up PWCB or you can scramble off.
surfziggy
25-Feb-2015
1:04:29 PM
Thanks for the info guys.

>Both the route description on thecrag and on SydneyClimbing.com say continue up PWCB or carefully walk off to the right. That would make me think that there aren't (bolted) anchors and that you could walk (carefully) to the top from the right.

:-)

Yeah that's how I read it too, was just checking how easy the escape was and if I can easily access it from above, so that I can solo TR it. Happy to build a trad anchor if needed.

>Did you mean is there a possibility of building a trad anchor there and what gear would you need?

>I'm sure I've top roped it - so there must be appropriate anchors. I love Tchaikovsky & Professor Wigginsworth loads of fun. All very run out. Wild Gravity is gnarly crimping.

>It's a pretty easy scramble up the gully to the right.
That's good to know.

>Beware of ticks.
Yeah, know what you mean...

It's my local so I've been up there quite a lot lately, mostly having a crack at Pulse of fools. It's a bloody great little route I reckon, but I'm still struggling with the last couple of meters of it. This is a great route to set up a solo TR on. But I was looking for other options up there too (I already did Ikon, Benign, Mescalito, Abseil Wall, Mode) on lead and on solo TR. And looking at Wild Gravity on Sunday, it looked a nice line from the bottom of the cliff.


sbm
25-Feb-2015
2:25:02 PM
Finishes at the Chunder Bucket anchors. But not the best choice for TRing as it traverses in?

Best route to the top of crag at that end, is a scramble with chipped jugs described as Exit Tortons in the guide (I actually updated it) just right of the Frogs Fling/Albatross roof.

You should ignore WG though and get on all the great 18/19 wall routes, Enterprise, Liquid Insanity, Marsupial Smearer direct finish, Sand Syringe, Not your average cab sav, Cobwebs.

Man I miss B-joey.
martym
25-Feb-2015
5:25:43 PM
On 25/02/2015 sbm wrote:
>Finishes at the Chunder Bucket anchors. But not the best choice for TRing
>as it traverses in?
>
>Best route to the top of crag at that end, is a scramble with chipped
>jugs described as Exit Tortons in the guide (I actually updated it) just
>right of the Frogs Fling/Albatross roof.
>
>You should ignore WG though and get on all the great 18/19 wall routes,
>Enterprise, Liquid Insanity, Marsupial Smearer direct finish, Sand Syringe,
>Not your average cab sav, Cobwebs.

9th Pillar of Mordor is gnarly too.

>Man I miss B-joey.

Clearly it's still there, get on out there Sam!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
25-Feb-2015
9:32:05 PM
On 25/02/2015 sbm wrote:
>Man I miss B-joey.

Yes, it is a good spot, and perhaps seemingly more so now that the peninsula is as built out as it has become.

Having said that, I don't miss BJ, even though I was lucky enough to be in on the ground floor of route establishment there.
This is mostly because it has become overbolted from what I remember it as, but that is another discussion...
martym
25-Feb-2015
10:16:44 PM
On 25/02/2015 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 25/02/2015 sbm wrote:
>>Man I miss B-joey.
>
>Yes, it is a good spot, and perhaps seemingly more so now that the peninsula is
>as built out as it has become.
>
>Having said that, I don't miss BJ, even though I was lucky enough to be
>in on the ground floor of route establishment there.
>This is mostly because it has become overbolted from what I remember it
>as, but that is another discussion...

Come on!!! Anything that can be naturally protected is left that way!
And half the "sport climbs" are run out...

tnd
26-Feb-2015
9:12:54 AM
On 25/02/2015 martym wrote:
>Come on!!! Anything that can be naturally protected is left that way!
>And half the "sport climbs" are run out...

I'll agree with that. Over a three period 2003-06 I rebolted the entire crag. Pulse of Fools, because it's grade 25, and Cranky (20), because it had hangers home made from angle-iron, got ring bolts. Everything else was pretty well direct replacement stainless carrot for bash-in. In most cases the bashies came out so easily I was able to use the same hole.

I was actually able to slightly reduce the overall number of bolts by reshuffling some routes' bolts to better positions and not replacing some which were close to micro-cam placements (which I guess were not considered useful back in the day). Overall I placed 99 stainless glue-in hex head bolts, including a few new double-bolt top belay stations where vegetation was getting trashed by people setting up top-ropes (not top belays). I also added a couple of new double-ring rappel points.

One previously trad route with marginal protection had been retrobolted (with mild steel dynabolts!) by someone else; I removed those, patched up the holes and left it as it should have been. It's climbable but it's a bit necky. Fair enough in my book.

I must have done something right because I still had people whinging that the first bolts on the thin face routes left of Crack of Dawn still had high first bolts :-) (the new ones are actually a tad lower than the originals, because erosion around the base had effectively raised them). But these routes are test pieces at the grade for an on-sight, and it's easy to climb CoD first to rap down and pre-place draws if desired.

Some of the old carrots were accidents waiting to happen, so I reckon the end result is positive. The crag to me is a good example of mixed climbing.

I discussed (not on the internet!) a lot of what I was doing with others who climbed at BJ a lot and I felt I had good consensus for the approach I took.

Sydney Rockclimbing Club eventually reimbursed me for all material costs. I also received a couple of $20 donations from random people at the crag who saw me at work. That helped with the exorbitant parking fees!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
26-Feb-2015
10:16:14 AM
Idra~>M9 wrote:
>Having said that, I don't miss BJ, even though I was lucky enough to be in on the ground floor of route establishment there.
>This is mostly because it has become overbolted from what I remember it as, but that is another discussion...

On 26/02/2015 tnd wrote:
>On 25/02/2015 martym wrote:
>>Come on!!! Anything that can be naturally protected is left that way!
>>And half the "sport climbs" are run out...
>
(snip)
>I was actually able to slightly reduce the overall number of bolts by
>reshuffling some routes' bolts to better positions and not replacing some
>which were close to micro-cam placements (which I guess were not considered
>useful back in the day). Overall I placed 99 stainless glue-in hex head
>bolts, including a few new double-bolt top belay stations where vegetation
>was getting trashed by people setting up top-ropes (not top belays). I
>also added a couple of new double-ring rappel points.
>
Hmm, 99 bolts eh?
You illustrate my point well, as there were no protection bolts there when I started regularly climbing at the place, though the army had installed abseil anchor bolts above abseil wall.

I am not against bolts per se, but my memories of BJ is that most (natural) climbs there had horizontal breaks that were used for protection.
The runouts between breaks varied but we accepted that.
The breaks were often flared making passive pro placement finangly, but we accepted that too.

When bolts started appearing on the faces and arêtes, we accepted that too, because it opened up new territory, and initially they were placed only where absolutely necessary to stop the leader dying. As a generalisation the spacing of those bolts was not dissimilar to the runouts we were used too.

On my last visit there I thought to myself that although it isn't a full on sport climbing venue, it had certainly become sportified*...

(*Don't worry about my rose coloured memories though; ... as they originated pre-slcd protection days, and back then our prejudice regarded the use of those when they became available, in the breaks, as cheating due being too easy to place!!)

>One previously trad route with marginal protection had been retrobolted
>(with mild steel dynabolts!) by someone else; I removed those, patched
>up the holes and left it as it should have been. It's climbable but it's
>a bit necky. Fair enough in my book.

Good work.
>
>I must have done something right because I still had people whinging that
>the first bolts on the thin face routes left of Crack of Dawn still had
>high first bolts :-) (the new ones are actually a tad lower than the originals,
>because erosion around the base had effectively raised them). But these
>routes are test pieces at the grade for an on-sight, and it's easy to climb
>CoD first to rap down and pre-place draws if desired.
>
Sad to hear of that degree of erosion.

Murdering COD like that short changes a potentially memorable experience, particularly if one continues on, trending up right on the unprotected face adjacent so as to top out higher.

>Some of the old carrots were accidents waiting to happen, so I reckon
>the end result is positive. The crag to me is a good example of mixed climbing.
>
You are probably right.

>I discussed (not on the internet!) a lot of what I was doing with others
>who climbed at BJ a lot and I felt I had good consensus for the approach
>I took.
>
I wonder what standards will be retro-applied to BJ by future generations, unless you perhaps reminisce in your older age too? ... Though hopefully it won't deteriorate further from the sensible standard that you have established.

>Sydney Rockclimbing Club eventually reimbursed me for all material costs.
>I also received a couple of $20 donations from random people at the crag
>who saw me at work. That helped with the exorbitant parking fees!

Parking fees?
~> another thing that was non existent back then too...


tnd
26-Feb-2015
11:45:13 AM
M9, regarding CoD, I meant one can climb that as an easy option, then rap down from its anchors to pre-place gear on the grade 18 face climbs below it.

The right trending 18 finish to CoD is a case in point. It had three carrots, which by relocating I reduced to two, as there are also two cam placements in horizontals.

Of course, I can only attest to the crag as having the bolts it had when I first went there in the early 90's. So e.g. you may think that the two cam placements above are enough and that there shouldn't be any bolts. Personal opinion, I guess. A friend brought Henry Barber up there for a climb on his visit in 2008, and he thought that Mescalito (19) didn't need its two carrots. But we aren't all tough enough to climb in a swami belt and a few pieces of passive pro!

However, I don't think that anyone could consider BJ to be overbolted to the extent of a lot of "sport" crags. It certainly still has plenty of pure trad routes with quite testing moves for their grades (e.g. Pledge a Legend, Abseil Wall).

IdratherbeclimbingM9
26-Feb-2015
12:00:52 PM
On 26/02/2015 tnd wrote:
>M9, regarding CoD, I meant one can climb that as an easy option, then rap
>down from its anchors to pre-place gear on the grade 18 face climbs below it.
>
Face climbs below Crack Of Dawn?
It is a crack starting at ground level so if we are talking the same route the face must be awsome!
;-)
... though COD does have a short section of horizontal crack due it zigs left- then zags straight up again, so that might create a 'face' below the horizontal bit?

>The right trending 18 finish to CoD is a case in point. It had three carrots,
>which by relocating I reduced to two, as there are also two cam placements in horizontals.
>
In the word of shortman...
>fark
I should have written up my ascent of that variation of it a week after Bill Goddard (NBCTT) put up COD on nuts and hexes.
I repeated his route and did the topout variation without bolts.
... and you reduced it from three bolts to two, for what a couple of body-lengths of climbing, 5 m or so? Old memory is fading so could be a tad longer?
>fark
I am still shaking my head over how much things have deteriorated there since I last visited.
The fact that my variation was so short even if it was a boldish runout, is why I never considered it worth writing up.
In fact back in those days we only ever regarded BJ as a practice area for longer blueys routes, as generally anything less than half rope-length was regarded as only being practice stuff!

I am really hoping that we have a miscommunication thing happening (possible different routes) about the route COD we are talking about...

>Of course, I can only attest to the crag as having the bolts it had when
>I first went there in the early 90's. So e.g. you may think that the two
>cam placements above are enough and that there shouldn't be any bolts.
>Personal opinion, I guess. A friend brought Henry Barber up there for a
>climb on his visit in 2008, and he thought that Mescalito (19) didn't need
>its two carrots. But we aren't all tough enough to climb in a swami belt
>and a few pieces of passive pro!
>
>However, I don't think that anyone could consider BJ to be overbolted
>to the extent of a lot of "sport" crags. It certainly still has plenty
>of pure trad routes with quite testing moves for their grades (e.g. Pledge
>a Legend, Abseil Wall).

I am starting to wonder about those routes now too...
martym
26-Feb-2015
12:28:45 PM
On 26/02/2015 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 26/02/2015 tnd wrote:
>>M9, regarding CoD, I meant one can climb that as an easy option, then
>rap
>>down from its anchors to pre-place gear on the grade 18 face climbs below
>it.
>>
>Face climbs below Crack Of Dawn?
>It is a crack starting at ground level so if we are talking the same route
>the face must be awsome!
>;-)



Is this a really dodgy dad (or grandad) joke?



>I am really hoping that we have a miscommunication thing happening (possible
>different routes) about the route COD we are talking about...

Perhaps not...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
26-Feb-2015
12:46:29 PM
On 26/02/2015 martym wrote:
>On 26/02/2015 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>Face climbs below Crack Of Dawn?
>>It is a crack starting at ground level so if we are talking the same route the face must be awsome!
>>;-)
>
>
>
>Is this a really dodgy dad (or grandad) joke?
>
>
>
>>I am really hoping that we have a miscommunication thing happening (possible
>>different routes) about the route COD we are talking about...
>
>Perhaps not...

The only other climb that I could possibly be confusing myself with here would be Pledge a Legend.
If I get time (not likely soon), I shall go through old photos to see if I have one to put up here of the route I am talking about.
The zig-zag feature of the crack is quite distinctive, so someone with more recent knowledge of the area may well correct me...

Australian Route Register describes COD as;
Crack of Dawn 15m 15 trad
Lower-off

At obvious bum crack.
Up the thrutchy bum crack, then either up the well protected headwall (BR), or pleasantly left up groove to top (BR on left protects top out). Double RB belay.

Start: 2m left of Enterprise.


But Rock (Sydney Sea Cliffs - Mikl guide) describes COD as...
Crack of Dawn 20m 15
Sparse protection near the top. Up twin cracks above intersection of tracks with cliff, then L up wall past BR.


~> It would seem that confusion is not limited to myself alone...

Both those souces say the same thing about Pledge a Legend.
Pledge a Legend 15m 14 mixed
Fine line in middle of steep wall.
The crack, left of Orgasmic.
The crack, with good protection and good rock, past BR on top wall to tree.


I wonder what CragX says?
Heh, heh, heh.
martym
26-Feb-2015
2:18:58 PM
>>On 26/02/2015 tnd wrote:
>>>M9, regarding CoD, I meant one can climb that as an easy option, then
>>rap
>>>down from its anchors to pre-place gear on the grade 18 face climbs
>below
>>it.
Carn old man. When he says "below it" he means below the anchor.

He's talking about Marsupial Smear & the climb next to it that's almost identical... The CoD anchor is actually better used for those climbs due to the wandery nature of the crack.

Of course - back in your day you didn't have anchors! You would fill a shoe box with lead you brought from the mines that you worked at 8 days a week and twice on Sundees.

tnd
26-Feb-2015
3:15:22 PM
CoD trends leftwards and ends on a ledge, a couple of metres wide and a metre deep. At the back of the ledge, at eye height, is a double ring rap station/anchor. This can be used to lower off and place draws on one of the three face routes to the left of CoD, by shuffling left and right as necessary as one lowers down the face.

On-sighting those three very thin routes, placing bolt plates and draws on lead, is still a pretty tough task. The bolts don't make them an easy ride, they just save your ankles if you fall.

The right variant finish, which goes higher than the ledge mentioned above, is the top half of Enterprise (18). E starts about a metre right of the bottom of the CoD bum crack. Climbed as a route in itself, it has four bolt runners, two or three in the bottom half and one or two in the top half - four altogether anyway. Yes, the top half could be done with just the cams, but as I said, someone had bashed in three carrots by the time I ever saw it, and I left it with at least one less.

M9, why don't you take a ride up there and form an opinion on what you see, not what you have heard or what you remember. This is a crag that numerous people enjoy in its present form.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
26-Feb-2015
3:24:56 PM
On 26/02/2015 martym wrote:
>>>On 26/02/2015 tnd wrote:
>>>>M9, regarding CoD, I meant one can climb that as an easy option, then rap
>>>>down from its anchors to pre-place gear on the grade 18 face climbs below it.

>Carn old man. When he says "below it" he means below the anchor.
>
>He's talking about Marsupial Smear & the climb next to it that's almost
>identical... The CoD anchor is actually better used for those climbs due
>to the wandery nature of the crack.
>
>Of course - back in your day you didn't have anchors! You would fill a
>shoe box with lead you brought from the mines that you worked at 8 days
>a week and twice on Sundees.

You are right about the lack of anchors, but wrong about the method of jiggery pokery to get them.
Why wen I were a lad, bein enviro an all an at a seaside cliff, we usta gather dead sea urchins and construct a matrix atop tha cliff by wedgn em spine first inta tha soil, to absqueal off...

Next time you are there martym, take a pic of COD and PAL and I will confirm what we did.

Bill G belayed me on it, and was stoked to have a variation topout to his new route at the time.
My main memory of it was that the large hex I had in the flared horizontal portion of the crack was not the greatest of placements, and it being my biggest bit of gear closest to me, and at about half height on the climb, did not inspire confidence of avoiding a groundfall when I ran out the new topout to gain extra height for his climb.

Since the ARR seems defunct these days, where is the best current repository of that kind of info? ... As I should get my act together and assist the database before my memory karks, if the current confusion is anything to go by ...
On the topic of photos; I reckon it would be magic if those databases accepted original historic photos to accompany the route descriptions, for future generations to ponder about the changes that have taken place since.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
26-Feb-2015
3:38:18 PM
On 26/02/2015 tnd wrote:
>(snip)
>M9, why don't you take a ride up there and form an opinion on what you
>see, not what you have heard or what you remember. This is a crag that
>numerous people enjoy in its present form.
>
Thanks for the (snipped) beta tnd, but the ledge you refer to isn't ringing memory bells loudly, as when I did my variation I avoided any 'escapes' so it doesn't jig the bells...
I do remember CoD as being more a bum crack though, and Enterprise hadn't been done at that stage...

The only things I have 'heard' are on this thread, and I don't think my memory is quite that bad yet, as I certainly have a clear picture in my mind of the route involved, if not it's correct name.

Re riding up there, I try hard to avoid Sydney these days.
A nine hour boring highway ride and then traffic congestion after it doesn't equate to my most recent rides; being a classic bike show at a winery at Rutherglen; and the ride prior to that, which was lunch at the Blue Duck Inn* prior to attending the Bright Adventure Film Festival...

(*Bright, Tawonga Gap, Falls Ck, BDI, Omeo, Hotham, Bright; is a magic loop, either way, and rates in my mind as some of the best motorcycling country in the world, for which I put on a used set of off road tyres to finish them off by wearing their edges on all the corners involved for that run, heh, heh, heh.).

IdratherbeclimbingM9
26-Feb-2015
4:02:31 PM
On 26/02/2015 tnd wrote:
>The right trending 18 finish to CoD is a case in point. It had three carrots, which by relocating I reduced to two, as there are also two cam placements in horizontals.

then later wrote;

>CoD trends leftwards and ends on a ledge, a couple of metres wide and a metre deep.
(snip)
>The right variant finish, which goes higher than the ledge mentioned above,
>is the top half of Enterprise (18). E starts about a metre right of the
>bottom of the CoD bum crack. Climbed as a route in itself, it has four
>bolt runners, two or three in the bottom half and one or two in the top
>half - four altogether anyway. Yes, the top half could be done with just
>the cams, but as I said, someone had bashed in three carrots by the time
>I ever saw it, and I left it with at least one less.
>
The more I think on this the more that ledge rings bells, however I don't recall any protection possibilities on the right side face above it (absolutely certain about that, as that is what made the route memorable for me), so maybe I went up the gap between those routes?

On the topic of historical ascents (of sorts), has anyone repeated;
* The line up the north side of the prominant overhang on the end of northern headland at Bilgola?
* The route that finishes up the unprotected left face of the 'nose' on North Avalon headland?
* Any routes in the zawn between Whale Beach and Palm Beach?
* Any routes on Lion Island?

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