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Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 46
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
All NSW (General) (General) (General)  

Author
Classic 'no-star' routes at Point Perp
rb
28-Oct-2014
10:09:11 AM
The 5-star system works fine in the Blueys. Just subtract 3 stars from every route to get the correct route quality...

nmonteith
28-Oct-2014
10:11:14 AM
sigh... anyone want to share their fav no-star routes at Point Perp?
maxdacat
28-Oct-2014
10:13:44 AM
On 27/10/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>Usually for quite minor infractions that can easily be fixed
>like bolt quality.
>
>

Yeah, because bolting at Point Perp is so uncontroversial :p

nmonteith
28-Oct-2014
10:22:28 AM
... anyone want to share their fav no-star routes at Point Perp??

nmonteith
28-Oct-2014
10:34:10 AM
Here is another cool little route I did on the weekend...

Two Minute Hate (23)
Located on the Windjammer end of the Lighthouse Area (just before the fence) - this short face is a tough little technical unit! The bottom section is reasonably straightforward (but pumpy) but the top few moves is most certainly the crux. A long move to a tinsy winsy little two finger flare pocket thing, then a wierd palm mantle to get your feet up to the top. Felt pretty tough for 23! It's a sport route (5 FHs) but has no anchor (you need to belay off the rap rope) and the first 5m is unprotected with nasty ledge fall potential. I pre-clipped the high first bolt. If I get keen I'll add a bolt anchor next time I'm at the Point. I give this route - 1 star.
sleake
28-Oct-2014
11:46:21 AM
OK Neil - Ill bite - unfortunatly I dont have the new guide - so ill judge popularity based on how many cob-webs are on the climb.

Midish Teen stuff - Aeolus? (15?)- big flake just right of Urban Spaceman. Wierd route - bit traversy and crap in the bottom thrird - but once on the flake its super cool - but it's a bit hollow...

Bluebeard - 17? - Bit further south from Sympatico. Cool corner crack thing - Rap in from top to avoid the first pitch - crap belay from nuts - tie in the belayer on rap line. But the route is all clean - nice route.

Landlubber - 17 - yeah the start is total poo - but upper crack is really nice.

Motzelluna (i think) - 18 - sandbagged - Far south of windjammer. Ball ripper of a route - harder version of Man overboard. Terrible first 10 meters, then offwithdth, roof, fist crack then hand crack - what more do you want!

Jaws of Death - Down at bayside - 20 - Ripper - Tight hands to chimney, to overhung chockstone to offwidthy fight.

Sorry if they already have stars.


Doug
28-Oct-2014
12:08:37 PM
196 climbs with cobwebs: that's a lot of climbs that have "had few ascents or has sketchy information". Love the guide otherwise, beautifully presented and very well organised. I'll be very happy to annotate my book with any info that folks have to offer.
Steve, thanks for your input: Aeolus, Bluebeard, Landlubber all have one star in the guide; Jaws of Death doesn't get a star (or a cobweb) but sounds like a mighty adventure.
At Windjammer, did you mean "Montezuma"? It has two stars but is described as "run out at the start". Is that what you meant by "terrible first 10 meters"?
sleake
28-Oct-2014
1:21:31 PM
Thanks for clarifying Doug.

Also by my 'cobweb' definition I ment spider webs in the climb - showing the lack of traffic - rather than the guidebook cobweb symbol.

Yeah must be Montezuma - the start is serious-ish - poor rock with little/no gear and actual climbing...... but if I can get my butt up it it mustnt be too bad.

Jaws of death is realy good - it is steep, if you manage to get your head out and look around its super super exposed - wide crack up overhanging wall, the rock is good (2 meters of rubbish off the belay then clean as) there is a ring bolt belay to rap down to- if it wasnt a thrash Im sure it would be popular.

Cheers

Doug
28-Oct-2014
1:36:08 PM
On 28/10/2014 sleake wrote:
>Thanks for clarifying Doug.
>
>Also by my 'cobweb' definition I ment spider webs in the climb - showing
>the lack of traffic - rather than the guidebook cobweb symbol.
>
It took me a couple of seconds but then I realised that's where you were coming from. Like it ... :-)

nmonteith
28-Oct-2014
2:09:43 PM
On 28/10/2014 sleake wrote:
>Thanks for clarifying Doug.
>
>Also by my 'cobweb' definition I ment spider webs in the climb - showing
>the lack of traffic - rather than the guidebook cobweb symbol.

With the vertical nature of the cliff, and the high winds and crazy rain the cliff at Point Perp very quickly goes feral. We were there on Saturday morning and nothing had chalk on it at all. Quite hard to pick the popular from the unpopular!
One Day Hero
28-Oct-2014
2:34:51 PM
On 28/10/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>If I get
>keen I'll add a bolt anchor next time I'm at the Point.

Why? You have to rap in to get to the route, the rap rope is as good an anchor as your new bolt belay will be. This isn't a safety issue, it isn't even a convenience issue. Think outside the box a bit mate.

nmonteith
28-Oct-2014
2:45:21 PM
On 28/10/2014 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 28/10/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>>If I get
>>keen I'll add a bolt anchor next time I'm at the Point.
>
>Why? You have to rap in to get to the route, the rap rope is as good an
>anchor as your new bolt belay will be. This isn't a safety issue, it isn't
>even a convenience issue. Think outside the box a bit mate.

Have you done the route? It is effectively a hanging belay (a tiny ledge) and the first bolt is way up - about 5m above the ledge on somewhat choss rock. So if you fall off you will take a factor 2 fall onto the rap rope - which has stretch and a ledge. A really shitty outcome. It also means the annoying rap rope sits over the climb which i really hate. I much prefer to have someone pull it up or throw it down so I don't have a cheat option for easy escape. Almost every other route in the area has bolted anchors - so why not this one? The route is a sport route - it's not like they were making some ethical decision. It was just lazy new routing.
One Day Hero
28-Oct-2014
2:53:22 PM
On 28/10/2014 simey wrote:
>There is nothing worse than having limited time to visit
>a cliff and jumping on an overly hyped route only to discover that your
>time would have been better spent on something else.

But that situation supposes that the relative starring of routes is inaccurate, which is a different problem altogether. I do agree that the most highly starred routes should be the ones you would recommend to someone for their one and only day at the crag. Whether the best routes in the area are given 2 or 3 stars is neither here nor there.

>I reckon it is a great symbol as it means that
>the route might be a gem, but the guidebook author simply doesn't know
>much about it.

Exactly! Duncan's routes were quite new when the book was written, had received few ascents, and the bloke seems pretty understated when it comes to spraying about his creations (unlike some self-promoty folks, eh Neil?). If guidebook authors were required to have first hand knowledge of every route in the guide, nothing would ever get finished.

>All I am saying is that guidebook authors will cop less flak by being
>conservative. In my opinion a three-star system works pretty well and basically
>anything that gets one star should be worthy of your time, whilst the three-star
>routes are generally mega-classics that have been acknowledged as such
>by a large number of climbers over time (not purely by Neil or yourself
>saying 'I did this route the other day and it is a three-star mega-classic!').

I generally agree with the above, however, there are elements of taste which come into it. I forget how many stars you give to things like Scorpion, Brolga, and Wizard of Ice, but many climbers these days probably won't like them. I think they're all great routes, but it is a matter of taste. The idea of 'objective' quality is laughable.
One Day Hero
28-Oct-2014
3:01:03 PM
On 28/10/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>Have you done the route?

I think I did it a long time ago, but not 100% sure. I don't see how a bolted belay on a ledge fixes the potential deck-out? Can't you rap down to the side of the route? Given that many people climb in pairs down there, I don't see pulling the rap rope up prior to leading as a viable option anyway.
Jayford4321
28-Oct-2014
3:26:14 PM
On 28/10/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>The route is a sport route - it's not like they
>were making some ethical decision. It was just lazy new routing.

That says lots.
(And lots).

nmonteith
28-Oct-2014
4:19:56 PM
On 28/10/2014 One Day Hero wrote:
>I don't see how a
>bolted belay on a ledge fixes the potential deck-out?

My issue with rap rope belays is the rope stretch factor. Its the same phenomenon that happens when you are top-roping. You don't want to fall off in the first few metres as the rope stretch means you will deck hard, and pull your belayer off the ledge as well. A decent bolt belay positioned at head height means the belay bolt protects the first moves and the climber won't fall onto the belayer directly. It also means the rap rope can be tied off loosely and out of the way. Falling onto a fixed rope is a recipe for rope burn.

> Can't you rap down
>to the side of the route?

I only found one bolt at the top - and backed it up with some rusty tiny exposed dynabolt left over from ye olde navy days. So not a lot of options for where to rap in.
Jayford4321
28-Oct-2014
4:55:36 PM
On 28/10/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>On 28/10/2014 One Day Hero wrote:
>>I don't see how a bolted belay on a ledge fixes the potential deck-out?
>
>My issue with rap rope belays is the rope stretch factor. Its the same
>phenomenon that happens when you are top-roping. You don't want to fall
>off in the first few metres as the rope stretch means you will deck hard,
>and pull your belayer off the ledge as well. A decent bolt belay positioned
>at head height means the belay bolt protects the first moves and the climber
>won't fall onto the belayer directly. It also means the rap rope can be
>tied off loosely and out of the way. Falling onto a fixed rope is a recipe
>for rope burn.
>

Ya talkin out ya backside nm, because rope stretch means a soft catch or soft deck out as the case may be, and if the belayer is pulled off the ledge it will be upwards and make the catch even softer.

Falling on a fixed rope gives rope burn? Wtf?
Falling against a fixed rope maybe, but in the case you describe the belayer is likely worse off than any ropeburn the leader may get.
Olbert
28-Oct-2014
4:59:43 PM
On 28/10/2014 rb wrote:
>The 5-star system works fine in the Blueys. Just subtract 3 stars from
>every route to get the correct route quality...

Having done a lot of my climbing in the Blueys, I would add that for some first ascentionists you should take off a bonus star.

On a totally unrelated note - how's your new routing going Mikl?

nmonteith
28-Oct-2014
5:31:56 PM
On 28/10/2014 gnaguts wrote:
>Ya talkin out ya backside nm, because rope stretch means a soft catch
>or soft deck out as the case may be,

If you have 30m of rope in the system - the stretch is considerable, so if you deck in the first few metres you deck hard. There is no 'soft catch' - you just hit the ledge like you never even had a rope on. Then you fall off the ledge - with your belayer who gets dragged with you.

>Falling against a fixed rope maybe, but in the case you describe the belayer
>is likely worse off than any ropeburn the leader may get.

Falling against is what I meant. With a rope hanging tight down the route, with a belayer attached it really gets in the way.

vwills
28-Oct-2014
9:21:22 PM
I liked Dry Reaching and Snickers Ahoy. I see neither of them have stars. I dont think they were classics though.They do say that many no star routes are worthwhile.
I see the new guide changed raptures of the deep from 3 stars (or hyped up) to no stars, would agree with that. And also Bird of Omen gets no stars, whereas the last guide mentioned its Arapilesian like rock. Would concur with the new guide on that too, as I suspect you would..

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There are 46 messages in this topic.

 

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