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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 11 of 14. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 260 | 261 to 271
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
VIC Buffalo The Horn Environs (General) The Horn [ Horn Guide ] 

Author
Bolting at The Horn, Mount Buffalo

Ben_E
18/02/2013
10:58:45 AM
2 bolt belay ~2/3 of the way up Profanities just to the right of the main line and just before the natural features/jugs kick in. I assumed it had been done as a belay at the top of the the "first pitch" of profanities rather than it being the top of another climb, but I may be wrong.

Edit: And from M9's comments it appears I was wrong.

Ben_E
18/02/2013
11:02:52 AM
On 18/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 18/02/2013 Ben_E wrote:
>>at least having a chat with other users to come up with a consensus vision
>for the area?
>
>PVic already has one, that may not include us in future if we don't self
>police within our community?

Some truth to that, though PVic have added a lot more mortar and metal to the horn environs than climbers could hope to do so in a lifetime.
Andrew Davis
26/02/2013
4:03:54 PM
On 16/02/2013 lacto wrote:
>If you are being paid to take people climbing then surely you fall under
>the gentle rules of WORKCOVER . You are in serious breach of the law if
>you expose anyone to more than a 2 metre fall and place yourself and the
>company you work for in line for hefty fines and or a prison term . To
>comply with this would require 2m grid bolting.

I would expect free falling more than 2 metres onto a hard surface is unacceptable and could mess you up quite a bit resulting in some legal issue if you owe a duty of care to someone else, and its doesn't need to be a commercial operation or any money swapping hands. However many of us have safely 'fallen' on a dynamic rope much great than 2 metres with a fall factor less than 1 with not the smallest injury. That is workcover would be more concerned about being tied into a rope above 2 metre and that there was no chance of a ground/ ledge fall or forces generated anywhere near factor 2.

Thanks also 'climbingM9' for the update. Easter Island (9?) is excellent for new lead climbers to practice on and people here are entitled to their opinion but if you would rather be climbing M9 why would you give a concern about an 8 metre grade 9, while in the last 2 years many others have (estimate 50 climbs). It is an easy 2m step up onto the nose to clip the first bolt, as you stated the large dirty hole through the centre can be protected with a cam on the left, the first vertical crack will take a large cam (therefore the middle bolt not needed) however the top crack will not take anything that would take a decent shock load making a stumble on the top out potentially fatal with a gound or fall onto the nose ledge. Its very disappointing the top bolt has gone and that people who have never before cared to climb it now have a lot of interest in it because others find it a fun and novel beginners climb, and if you think something that high is only a boulder problem then you must be hard, because my body couldn't take a fall that big. The sequence in this climb is very different to LHV, with an easy start onto the nose and tougher finish, while i agree with the remarks about LHV, if you can get off the ledge you will have ample skill to stay safe on the top section.

Andrew Davis
26/02/2013
4:46:58 PM
Wendy, Ive been away camping for a week so i will do my best to explain a few things that you have raised here publicly, which you could have misunderstood or even made a few assumptions which it seems is easy to do here.

Firstly there is the issue of which particular cliff user has the greater right. Is it the traditional climber, the sports climber, the commercial operator, the educator, the youth worker/youth development? Unfortunately the last 3 can get overlook due to clashes with the first 2. While I am an educator I personally would give slightly greater right to the commercial operator that is creating employment, contributing to the economy, paying off a mortgage, raising a family, paying licences and insurance and providing clients a great outdoor experience that they may otherwise never get. I realize that is just one opinion. Basically I think a fundamentalist is someone that has their nose pushed so hard up against the mirror they only see their own little world, their own opinions and those who reflect the same narrow view as themselves. They seem unable to take a few steps back from the mirror to take in the views of others. [Its odd that fundamentalists always have some type of creed they fight for and the extremists believe only they can interpret the creed correctly for everyone else] It would appear some people here rudely and abruptly voice their opinions as fact and attack others with different views. Its an approach that simply polarizes attitudes rather than informs, tolerates and respects all cliff users. Hence the fundamentalist slurs about me not being a real climber, take my mother climbing, or go back to my little welfare kids just proves how narrow and intolerant some people can be.

Secondly you address comments to me about learning to climb at Buffalo as if you have heard a little but not much about the UNI/TAFE climbing program in AlburyWodonga. Let me give you a little more information to base your opinion on but not necessarily change it, and while its not perfect I think over 13 years it has gradually developed to be a thorough learning program with ratios usually 1:4 which gives plenty of instructor tuition. The program goes for 3 years and starts the first year with top roping, seconding, vertical rescue: 1 day at Buffalo, 8 days Summerday/Arapiles, 2 days The Rock, 2 days Mt Pilot, then they loan out gear and need to do their own self-guided trips at the five crags they have been introduced to. Second year they head to Buffalo for 6 days (and yes most do lead grade 16, 17’s), then work and train at the local climbing centre while they log up min 500 metres of leading, (usually vics head to Araps, while nsw will head to Blueys/Nowra). Come November its back to Buffalo to organise and guide 2 outdoor ed climbing programs. In their third year they continue climbing and gain industry experience working for tourist and outdoor ed operators before graduating end of year.

Finally the Mt Buffalo plateau and surrounding Ovens, Buckland, and Buffalo valleys is a gem with so many opportunities for adventure. We are just a little grateful the Grampians and Arapiles is closer to Melbourne than Buffalo, while we only 130k away. We don’t even mind if some people spread the myth that Buffalo is dangerous and scary and really hard to climb, and while some fundamentalists may want that to be a reality i firmly believe there is room for everyone there. Just stand on top of the Hump and take a 360deg look around you will see more granite than you could climb in a lifetime. And clearly wherever there is a line that is safely and traditionally climbed then it should be most definitely be preserved that way for a lifetime, however there is plenty of room for all cliff uses


On 16/02/2013 Wendy wrote:
>On 7/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:

> You go for a week or 2 to Araps, climb milages of easy stuff, spend another
>few days in the gramps getting on stuff with more complicated route finding
>and less reliable rock to get ready for the reality of climbing at Buffalo.
>And even after that, there's not going to be that much your average climber
>is ready for at Buffalo, but you'd have a great time and learn heaps. It's
>just the nature of Buffalo and bolting a few easy routes is not going to
>change that.
>
>With Profanities, did someone say that was 17? That's not a bloody beginner
>route anyway.
lacto
26/02/2013
6:28:21 PM
On 26/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:
>I would expect free falling more than 2 metres onto a hard surface is
>unacceptable and could mess you up quite a bit resulting in some legal
>issue if you owe a duty of care to someone else, and its doesn't need to
>be a commercial operation or any money swapping hands. However many of
>us have safely 'fallen' on a dynamic rope much great than 2 metres with
>a fall factor less than 1 with not the smallest injury. That is workcover
>would be more concerned about being tied into a rope above 2 metre and
>that there was no chance of a ground/ ledge fall or forces generated anywhere
>near factor 2.

My point re Workcover is that if you are being paid to take people climbing then you are subject to workcover rules . If you top rope people then you should satisfy their requirements so you dont need to grid bolt lines , if you are supervising beginners to lead then I believe that you still fall under the workcover guidelines and if you bolted those routes would be responsible if anyone came to grief or would have to name who did , maybe all this seems like fanciful thinking but have a serious accident and you will find the full ire of workcover .
Similarly for professional indemity cover . Stick to top roping unless you are prepared for ALL the possible consequences . 40 odd years ago I worked for Outward Bound where we were only allowed to top rope (litigation then was minimal ) participants climbing on those really well known crags at damsite hill- pretty valley , and the top of Mt Wills both which offered a good climbing experience without impacting on traditional climbing areas
crazyjohn
26/02/2013
9:28:10 PM
On 26/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:

Hello Andrew. I live in Tassie but have climbed a bit at Buffalo including Pintle LHV. I have not seen the controversial actions taken by developers lately but I have some concerns with the way you are presenting the justification for bolts.

>Firstly there is the issue of which particular cliff user has the greater
>right. Is it the traditional climber, the sports climber, the commercial
>operator, the educator, the youth worker/youth development?

As far as bolting etiquette is concerened, if you wish to divide climbers into user groups, there are really only two groups;recreational climbers and commercial climbers. I find it strange that TAFE educators and students somehow think they are different than other commercial operators. Any group of people who pay guides to show them how to climb are by definition involved in a commercial operation. This includes guides working with troubled youth or taking out school kids. It gets a tiny bit gray if you are volunteering as a guide to take troubled kids out but as far as installing bolts to facilitate this kind of guiding, it is pretty much the same.


Climbing was not started to provide support to troubled youth. It was not started to provide soft fruity types a safe and sanitized taste of adventure. It was not started to give paying jobs to guides to do either of these. It seems that you have an appreciation of the traditional values of climbing, yet have a convenient disconnect with these values when it comes to you and your mates making money from climbing. Commercial operators exist only because they are tolerated by traditional climbers.

I certainly do not mind sharing the crag with guides and their clients. What I completely object to is the insistence by commercial operators such as yourself that you somehow have equal or, possibly more, right to place bolts.

What you need to appreciate is that guides installing bolts need to be very careful. You come across as pretty arrogant. Your whole "face against the mirror" line is immediately transparent as labeling anyone who disagrees with you narrow minded. Simply asserting that guides have the right to retrobolt routes for their clients (whether this is for troubled youth or backpackers or whoever) does not in any way help to make your case.

At the end of the day, these bolts are controversial. It seems to me that any climber with the barest notion of traditional values would have realized this. If you want to keep these bolts and any further bolts from being chopped, you need to rethink your approach to traditional climbing. I think you forget that ultimately, it is very easy for someone who disagrees with you to win this argument.

Ben_E
26/02/2013
9:44:07 PM
Hi Andrew.

Hope you enjoyed your camping trip.

I'm a bit reluctant to post to this thread again given it is unlikely anyone has or will shift greatly from their initial position, but here goes anyway…

You state "Just stand on top of the Hump and take a 360deg look around you will see more granite than you could climb in a lifetime".

As you point out, there is a lot of rock there (whether there is more than one could climb in lifetime is another matter, but we'll put that aside). This raises the question of why you or others have in effect retrobolted an established area, rather than establishing your own area, in your own style, amongst this alleged sea of granite. You would have been unlikely to attract comment, let alone anyone's ire in doing so.

In terms of your comment "And clearly wherever there is a line that is safely and traditionally climbed then it should be most definitely be preserved that way for a lifetime", there is clearly a difficult grey area there in terms of the definition of what can be safely and traditionally climbed. Safely in terms of a new and possibly nervous leader doing their outdoor course? Safely in terms of someone with a bit more experience in fiddling in tricky bits of gear and a more extensive rack? Safely in the terms of the 0.1% who care to boulder hard highballs?

Based on what I saw Easter Island can be acceptably safely led on trad by an experienced or semi-experienced leader, but I'd agree with you that it is not a very appealing climb for the neophyte in its current chopped state. That can be used as an argument against either chopping it or bolting it in the first place.

In spite of not being a particularly bold leader or one of your anti-bolt fundamentalist straw-men I still feel the overall bolting I saw at the horn last weekend crossed a line and is inappropriate in the context of the area.

Ben

Miguel75
26/02/2013
10:08:28 PM
On 26/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:
>Thanks also 'climbingM9' for the update. Easter Island (9?) is excellent
>for new lead climbers to practice on and people here are entitled to their
>opinion but if you would rather be climbing M9 why would you give a concern
>about an 8 metre grade 9, while in the last 2 years many others have (estimate
>50 climbs). It is an easy 2m step up onto the nose to clip the first bolt,
>as you stated the large dirty hole through the centre can be protected
>with a cam on the left, the first vertical crack will take a large cam
>(therefore the middle bolt not needed) however the top crack will not take
>anything that would take a decent shock load making a stumble on the top
>out potentially fatal with a gound or fall onto the nose ledge. Its very
>disappointing the top bolt has gone and that people who have never before
>cared to climb it now have a lot of interest in it because others find
>it a fun and novel beginners climb, and if you think something that high
>is only a boulder problem then you must be hard, because my body couldn't
>take a fall that big.

Given the gridbolting that has occurred at Buffalo in recent times is it ok to raise objections to what might seem excessive bolting? If 3 bolts in an 8m climb (at a spacing of ~2.6meters per bolt (hereafter referred to as m/p/b)) becomes the norm, is it ok to rebolt other climbs, say Profanities (45m with 11 bolts) into an easier climb by adding another 7 bolts to achieve the same spacing of 2.6m? It'd be a whole lot safer and easier!

On 26/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:
>Basically I think a fundamentalist is
>someone that has their nose pushed so hard up against the mirror they only
>see their own little world, their own opinions and those who reflect the
>same narrow view as themselves. They seem unable to take a few steps back
>from the mirror to take in the views of others. [Its odd that fundamentalists
>always have some type of creed they fight for and the extremists believe
>only they can interpret the creed correctly for everyone else] It would
>appear some people here rudely and abruptly voice their opinions as fact
>and attack others with different views. Its an approach that simply polarizes
>attitudes rather than informs, tolerates and respects all cliff users.
> Hence the fundamentalist slurs about me not being a real climber, take
>my mother climbing, or go back to my little welfare kids just proves how
>narrow and intolerant some people can be.

Yeah but if it wasn't for these "fundamentalists" there'd be silliness happening everywhere. Rock is finite. There were 3 bolts in an 8m boulder, now there is one. I reckon the fact 3 were placed speaks more against the bolters than it does the bolts. Sensible bolting like Profanities seems to be tolerated; silly bolting will likely draw people's ire. You seem to take umbrage to the fact people labelled you and then do it yourself with the 'fundamentalist' thing...

>Secondly you address comments to me about learning to climb at Buffalo
>as if you have heard a little but not much about the UNI/TAFE climbing
>program in AlburyWodonga. Let me give you a little more information to
>base your opinion on but not necessarily change it, and while its not perfect
>I think over 13 years it has gradually developed to be a thorough learning
>program with ratios usually 1:4 which gives plenty of instructor tuition.
> The program goes for 3 years and starts the first year with top roping,
>seconding, vertical rescue: 1 day at Buffalo, 8 days Summerday/Arapiles,
>2 days The Rock, 2 days Mt Pilot, then they loan out gear and need to do
>their own self-guided trips at the five crags they have been introduced
>to. Second year they head to Buffalo for 6 days (and yes most do lead
>grade 16, 17’s), then work and train at the local climbing centre while
>they log up min 500 metres of leading, (usually vics head to Araps, while
>nsw will head to Blueys/Nowra). Come November its back to Buffalo to organise
>and guide 2 outdoor ed climbing programs. In their third year they continue
>climbing and gain industry experience working for tourist and outdoor ed
>operators before graduating end of year.

I reckon this sounds like a pretty rad course and kudos to you for getting people out on the rock. You have a pretty hefty responsibility, teaching your charges to climb safely, but more than that you're the 'culture' setter and the person they'll look to to help them shape their ethics. If you won't listen to all sides why will they?

EDIT; Ben E, darn you for using "ire" before me. Now I feel like a copy cat!

And maybe we can get one our resident guides to comment on the Worksafe implications, if any, associated with guiding/climbing?
chalkischeap
26/02/2013
10:11:37 PM
Andrew you sound like an intelligent guy.

Your justifications for bolting are not acceptable within the Australian climbing community.

Read Crazy Johns post again.

E. Wells
26/02/2013
10:45:52 PM
Andrew you read like an intelligent guy.
..so I cant understand why you post in Chockstone?
patto
27/02/2013
1:07:45 AM
On 26/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:
>Just stand on top of the Hump and take
>a 360deg look around you will see more granite than you could climb in
>a lifetime. And clearly wherever there is a line that is safely and traditionally
>climbed then it should be most definitely be preserved that way for a lifetime,
>however there is plenty of room for all cliff uses
>

I completely agree. Which is why I find your bolting at an existing cliff odd. If you want to bolt then go grab some of that granite that is not full of regularly climbed trad climbs! Finding 'lines' in close proximity to establish trad lines and bolting them is not what many trad climbers the world over would consider appropriate.
GoUp!
27/02/2013
8:13:46 AM
Morning Andrew,

'Firstly there is the issue of which particular cliff user has the greater right. Is it the traditional climber, the sports climber, the commercial operator, the educator, the youth worker/youth development?'

Specific to the retroing issues then the answer to this question is simple - the traditional climber as that was the style of the first ascent. Whatever made you think that your self-induced employment selection and need/want to support your lifestyle choices would take priority over that?

Also regarding ethics - if you're involved with teaching climbing shouldn't you also be instilling in your students the broader issues of climbing (ethics including not retroing, respecting the style of first ascent, not over cleaning etc)??? This will go a long way to them becoming better and more educated climbers - particularly if you're training them to also become instructors.


IdratherbeclimbingM9
27/02/2013
10:04:57 AM
On 26/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:
>Thanks also 'climbingM9' for the update. Easter Island (9?) is excellent
>for new lead climbers bolters to practice on
(fixedthatforyouAndrew)
?
... given the original placements on a trad protectable climb?


>and people here are entitled to their opinion
>but if you would rather be climbing M9 why would you give a concern
>about an 8 metre grade 9, while in the last 2 years many others have (estimate
>50 climbs).

Would it help our possible agreeing Andrew, if I changed my user name to Idratherbeboltingtradprotectableboulders ? or Idratherretrobolttradclimbs?

My concern stems from the eroding of ’trad climbing’ through indiscriminate bolting.


>It is an easy 2m step up onto the nose to clip the first bolt,
>as you stated the large dirty hole through the centre can be protected
>with a cam on the left, the first vertical crack will take a large cam
>(therefore the middle bolt not needed) however the top crack will not take
>anything that would take a decent shock load making a stumble on the top
>out potentially fatal with a gound or fall onto the nose ledge.

Your memory of that climb seems different to my (and others) recent experience.
The top crack is more than adequately protectable with cams for a beginning leader, and for an old fart like myself, I dare say I could finagle a matrix of hexes etc there, if I felt that I needed too.


>Its very disappointing the top bolt has gone and that people who have never before
>cared to climb it now have a lot of interest in it because others find
>it a fun and novel beginners climb, and if you think something that high
>is only a boulder problem then you must be hard, because my body couldn't
>take a fall that big.

Are you trying to tell us that three bolts in 8 metres is your idea of safe for new leaders when from what I could find of the pre-chopped placements the top bolt did not adequately protect the topout anyway?
What happens when these same new leaders bypass trad placements looking for bolts that may or may not be there?

Who were you catering for with those bolts when you admit the middle bolt wasn’t needed, and the top bolt position was clippable at waist level but still with 2m to topout?*
(*By my reckoning a lead fall onto that top bolt where it was, would still have caused a leader to ‘bounce’ on the start ‘ledge’, and the trad pro that I saw placed adjacent to that location was actually higher!)


>The sequence in this climb is very different to LHV, with an easy start onto the nose and tougher finish, while i agree with the remarks about LHV, if you can get off the ledge you will have
>ample skill to stay safe on the top section.

I would say the same about Easter Island, as the crux is actually the move off the ‘easy ledge start’ to gain the centre ledge of the boulder; and the topout has more holds available, as well as the angle backing off .
Oh, the thought just occurred to me that you may be referring to a possible mental crux when one gets higher off the ground and starts to wobble because they are leading?

>Its very disappointing the top bolt has gone

Most posters on this thread; I can count them for you if you like ;-) ; have expressed similar disappointment about those bolts appearing, and it would seem that action has started being taken to redress that situation...
Your recent posts suggest (to me at least), that you are possibly now entrenched in an indefensible stance regarding those bolts?
~> I hope this is not the case.

Macciza
Online Now
27/02/2013
12:06:27 PM
Hi All

'Firstly there is the issue of which particular cliff user has the greater right. Is it the traditional climber, the sports climber, the commercial operator, the educator, the youth worker/youth development?'

Who has the greatest right - The Cliff itself! It does not need bolts . . .
Bolts don't make cliffs safe, climbers make cliffs dangerous . . .

But basically Tradition wins over economics . . .

IdratherbeclimbingM9
27/02/2013
3:59:28 PM
On 26/02/2013 Ben_E wrote:
>Based on what I saw Easter Island can be acceptably safely led on trad
>by an experienced or semi-experienced leader, but I'd agree with you that
>it is not a very appealing climb for the neophyte in its current chopped
>state.
>
What do you feel a neophyte being indoctrinated into climbing within a traditionally-trad area (ie minimalist bolting), would find appealing?

>That can be used as an argument against either chopping it or bolting it in the first place.

That would also depend on the area involved and the prevailing 'ethic', does it not?
I would suggest that for this area, the delineations have already been clearly defined, and the only controversy is a result of recent developments.

Personally, (for example), I disagree with the bolt on Pintle LHV, but if kieranl and kevinl as first ascentionists, are not prepared to denounce it outright, ... then I reluctantly abide (philosophically), by their acquiescence to having it there, though I still feel that this compromise erodes the trad ethic of the location.



rolsen1
28/02/2013
8:28:45 AM
On 16/02/2013 crazyjohn wrote:
>One HUGE problem with this retrobolting that has not been addressed much
>is the fact that many of the bolters and supporters of the retro bolts
>are professional guides. Recently, there have been questionable anchors
>installed on trad routes on Mt. Wellington by guides. Initially the bolters
>
>snip

Everyone in this thread, as does everyone in life have hidden agendas. Not making money doesn't mean you ethical, and making money doesn't mean your unethical. It is how you conduct yourself that makes you ethical.

The people arguing against the bolts also have their own agendas, we see it all the time on chockstone, trying to put on a show about how hardcore they are. Reputation is their money, reputation is their hidden agenda... well not so hidden, quite obvious actually.

The people putting in bolts have agendas as well. Maybe the glory of the FA?

Andrew is an easy target, that's why everyone is lining up against him, period.

Of course, having a agenda doesn't mean you're necessarily wrong... but I wish everyone would stop trying to make this into a battle about good an evil. Its ok for everyone to cover the crags with chalk and minimally placed bolts (did miguel chop the bolts on the traverse of the initiation? Did M9 fill the hole on A5 sport climb?) but its an outrage that Andrew has placed bolts on a small boulder no one goes near? For which the bolts need to be chopped and he needs to be publicly denigrated? This only happened because Andrew is not in the "in crowd." Many of the people whinging about the bolts have probably placed more bolts than Andrew.

If you want to make this about good and evil, stop using all bolts (including raps), and stop using chalk.

This thread is not about bolts but rather about egos. And, I must admit, you're all so awesome.

No, I am not nor have I ever been or do I ever plan to guide or make money out of climbing.

nmonteith
28/02/2013
8:39:44 AM
Nicely put Rolsen.

davidn
28/02/2013
8:47:02 AM
Not to completely agree with rolsen1 but this thread does seem to be pretty skewed.

I'll just make the observation that while recent threads in chockstone might suggest otherwise, I'm pretty sure there are many more bolts going up per day than being chopped, and some of them are next to cracks and other protectable features. So I'm not sure Crazyjohn's assertion about traditional climbers controlling the state of cliffs or whether people climb is particularly true, much as some might want it to be; and being naturally cynical I remain of the view that in the long term the minority - bolt choppers cannot win out against the majority - bolt-clippers.

...Before the inevitable flames commence, I climb trad (occasionally, which is about as much as I can say for all my climbing at the moment!) and have never sunk a bolt, which is not to say I wouldn't; in fact I had a drill for just that purpose for a while, but reconsidered.
crazyjohn
28/02/2013
9:26:11 AM
On 28/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:

>Everyone in this thread, as does everyone in life have hidden agendas.
>Not making money doesn't mean you ethical, and making money doesn't mean
>your unethical. It is how you conduct yourself that makes you ethical.

If a guide retrobolts an established trad route to facilitate guiding (i.e. make money) but says they did it because of safety or access, it is so obviously unethical it does need further explanation.

>The people arguing against the bolts also have their own agendas, we see
>it all the time on chockstone, trying to put on a show about how hardcore
>they are. Reputation is their money, reputation is their hidden agenda...
>well not so hidden, quite obvious actually.

Yours is a very cynical way of looking at climbing. There is an adventure element to all climbing especially trad climbing. There are many 'reputation' routes that give the climber a feeling of accomplishment in the face of danger. This is an undeniable part of climbing. Literally earning money by eliminating the adventure of a route and making it easier to guide is so far removed from the "reputation money" one earns by climbing the route the way it use to be.

>The people putting in bolts have agendas as well. Maybe the glory of the
>FA?

Uhhh, duh? People climb for the glory. Is this bad? I hope not. Having an agenda in itself is not wrong. What I am pointing out is that lately guides have been adding bolts to trad climbs in the name of safety, etc. Andrew Davis'(a paid guide) recent comments show that he does not respect traditional climbing. Letting paid guides, who dont respect traditional values, install bolts wherever they want is a bad idea. This is the whole point about hidden agendas. I just think its curious that in Vic and Tas, there have been controversial retro-bolting of trad routes by commercial operaters who say they are doing it for safety.

Andrew is an easy target because his ideas about bolting trad routes are contrary to many people. People are taking a stand because they disagree, not to be bullys! Which new age self-help group did you just walk out of?

Finally, your line about using chalk, etc. is total rubbish. Are you really arguing against using chalk? I believe you are just annoyingly asserting that no one can complain about trad ethics unless they themselves live up to some perfect trad ethic (which you completely pulled out of your ass). Fixed pro (including bolts) has always been a part of climbing. For quite a while, climbers have realized that the cliffs are a finite resource. The heavy handed use of bolts can ruin routes forever. Guiding has been a part of climbing for a long time. Bolts and guiding are viewed by almost every Australian climber as OK. But when a guide places bolts that ruin a climb in order to facilitate guiding, this is a problem. If this kind of behavior is not checked, then the finite resource of cliffs is ruined.

This is not a rant for my reputation. I spend most of my time climbing. I dont want cliffs ruined by people making money.

nmonteith
28/02/2013
9:47:20 AM
Isn't Simey a guide and didn't he add several bolts to easy routes at Arapiles recently (including Watchtower Crack?). They were certainly put on routes well within his limits, and by his own words were put in for others with lesser ability.

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