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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 12 of 14. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 260 | 261 to 271
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
VIC Buffalo The Horn Environs (General) The Horn [ Horn Guide ] 

Author
Bolting at The Horn, Mount Buffalo

ajfclark
Online Now
28/02/2013
9:49:00 AM
And there was pages and pages of discussion of it here and I'm sure some in person...

Where's that Dribble thread?

[edit: 15 pages on The Dribble: http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=1&MessageID=74501&PagePos=&Sort=&Replies=288&MsgPagePos=0 ]

[second edit: Wasn't it new pitons for watchtower crack? Another 7 pages here and Bygone gets a mention too: http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=1&MessageID=18289&PagePos=&Sort=&Replies=126&MsgPagePos=20 ]
ademmert
28/02/2013
10:43:33 AM
On 28/02/2013 crazyjohn wrote:
>On 28/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:
>
>>Everyone in this thread, as does everyone in life have hidden agendas.
>>Not making money doesn't mean you ethical, and making money doesn't mean
>>your unethical. It is how you conduct yourself that makes you ethical.
>
>If a guide retrobolts an established trad route to facilitate guiding
>(i.e. make money) but says they did it because of safety or access, it
>is so obviously unethical it does need further explanation.
>
>>The people arguing against the bolts also have their own agendas, we
>see
>>it all the time on chockstone, trying to put on a show about how hardcore
>>they are. Reputation is their money, reputation is their hidden agenda...
>>well not so hidden, quite obvious actually.
>
>Yours is a very cynical way of looking at climbing. There is an adventure
>element to all climbing especially trad climbing. There are many 'reputation'
>routes that give the climber a feeling of accomplishment in the face of
>danger. This is an undeniable part of climbing. Literally earning money
>by eliminating the adventure of a route and making it easier to guide is
>so far removed from the "reputation money" one earns by climbing the route
>the way it use to be.
>
>>The people putting in bolts have agendas as well. Maybe the glory of
>the
>>FA?
>
>Uhhh, duh? People climb for the glory. Is this bad? I hope not. Having
>an agenda in itself is not wrong. What I am pointing out is that lately
>guides have been adding bolts to trad climbs in the name of safety, etc.
>Andrew Davis'(a paid guide) recent comments show that he does not respect
>traditional climbing. Letting paid guides, who dont respect traditional
>values, install bolts wherever they want is a bad idea. This is the whole
>point about hidden agendas. I just think its curious that in Vic and Tas,
>there have been controversial retro-bolting of trad routes by commercial
>operaters who say they are doing it for safety.
>
>Andrew is an easy target because his ideas about bolting trad routes are
>contrary to many people. People are taking a stand because they disagree,
>not to be bullys! Which new age self-help group did you just walk out of?
>
>
>Finally, your line about using chalk, etc. is total rubbish. Are you really
>arguing against using chalk? I believe you are just annoyingly asserting
>that no one can complain about trad ethics unless they themselves live
>up to some perfect trad ethic (which you completely pulled out of your
>ass). Fixed pro (including bolts) has always been a part of climbing. For
>quite a while, climbers have realized that the cliffs are a finite resource.
>The heavy handed use of bolts can ruin routes forever. Guiding has been
>a part of climbing for a long time. Bolts and guiding are viewed by almost
>every Australian climber as OK. But when a guide places bolts that ruin
>a climb in order to facilitate guiding, this is a problem. If this kind
>of behavior is not checked, then the finite resource of cliffs is ruined.
>
>This is not a rant for my reputation. I spend most of my time climbing.
>I dont want cliffs ruined by people making money.
>

Nicely put john
crazyjohn
28/02/2013
10:53:19 AM
On 28/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>Isn't Simey a guide and didn't he add several bolts to easy routes at Arapiles
>recently (including Watchtower Crack?). They were certainly put on routes
>well within his limits, and by his own words were put in for others with
>lesser ability.

Simey copped it for watchtower and dribble (for right or wrong) but in neither case (out of nearly 30! pages of replies) was it suggested that he bolted these routes to facilitate guiding. In the Buffalo case, Andrew has almost(but not quite) come right out and said these bolts make it easier for him to guide.

Comparing Simon's retro bolting with Andrew's is actually very useful because it gives people a good example of when installing anchors on an established climb is generally acceptable. It also should demonstrate to would-be retro-bolters (guides) that retro-bolting routes is VERY controversial. Unfortunately, I dont think Andrew Davis cares a tot; look at his "face against the mirror" crap.

The main point is that I do not think Simey added these bolts for guiding. I dont think Simey adds any bolts for guiding. He has long stated that grade is not the only consideration for placing bolts. I believe his actions are to keep Araps a good crag for all levels of climbers. Andrew Davis does not come across this way. He seems to think he has as much right to add bolts for guiding (or more) than recreational climbers have for not wanting bolts. This is my gripe. Because Simey is a guide, you might wonder if he is trying to make his job easier but really know one believes this. However, this Andrew character has come right out and stated he has as much right to retro-bolt routes for guiding as the FA team had to climb Pintle LHV. This is the big issue. Because he stated this(or words to this effect), it makes all the other many reasons he gave for bolting very suspect. And I will state the obvious again- If a guide is making money from retro-bolting trad routes by guiding clients up them, all of the other arguments they use (like the good ones Simey used) to justify the bolts become extremely questionable.
uwhp510
28/02/2013
11:03:15 AM
On 28/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:
>The people arguing against the bolts also have their own agendas, we see
>it all the time on chockstone, trying to put on a show about how hardcore
>they are.

I do have an agenda, but its the non-hidden, obvious one. I want to preserve trad climbing because I like it and and I don't particularly like sport climbing. Obviously this particular episode of retro-bolting doesn't affect me personally, and doesn't in and of itself mean that everything is going to be retro-ed tomorrow, but its the slippery slope thing. Every time something gets retro-ed or some shitty little over-bolted filler route gets wedged in, it contributes to a growing acceptance of retro-bolting and shitty little filler routes. If you don't think that's true, head down to Windjammer Wall and see what's gone on there (but do it before the weather fines up and it all gets reversed).

I don't think you could argue that its immoral to retro-bolt stuff, but its definitely unethical.
Will_P
28/02/2013
11:51:19 AM
So timely...

http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/uiaa-issues-bizzare-indictment-of-sport-climbing

IdratherbeclimbingM9
28/02/2013
1:11:20 PM
On 28/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:
>This thread is not about bolts but rather about egos. And, I must admit, you're all so awesome.
>
You have heard of the climbs on Stiletto Slab at Mackeys Lookout, named No Ego*, and Fundamental Difference Of Opinion* ??
~> Pot and kettle stuff here perhaps due they were put up for everyone to have a sanitised experience, by a pro-bolter who is equally passionate, and would fit your definition (by usage), of awesome! ...
(*Those bolted climbs impacted on some trad lines there).

>have their own agendas (snip)

It is not about good and evil, because as you infer, there are many shades of grey involved.
Where and when will the uneccessary overbolting stop, without people making it an agenda?
Yes I have an agenda. Please click on my profile and hide my posts from yourself if this agenda offends you.
singersmith
28/02/2013
3:06:22 PM
I don't know how this could possibly be construed as an ego issue; I'd maintain it's exactly the opposite - that is, a concern for everybody else and that which can't be known (the future). It would seem then that 90% of climbers who post here are egotistical jerks; I don't get that sense at all, this isn't Supertopo. I think it's a public service issue and that is what concerns me and warrants logging those concerns for the record. I don't really want to chime in much more until I see the bolts first hand but I do have a couple of thoughts.

First, life rule number #6: if I ever find myself saying to essentially everyone else, 'But you don't understand!', its time sit on a log for awhile and consider my position. What's was that about the road being paved with good intentions? Andrew's not the first person ever to take hoods in the woods, teach climbing at Buffalo, or take his parents out climbing and need appropriate routes for those activities.

Second, it's not about the bolts per se, it's about something much harder to put your finger on which is, "Is it a 'line"? How is it different than if I step 5 meters left of the chains to Ali Baba's and bolt a new line for all the same reasons? Or bolt a new 14 next to the descent on Mitre Rock? I would say that the historical record -along with present company- clearly indicates that the great majority of climbers don't see a "line" on those boulders. If that's where the line is for a "line" then I can think of several lines at the Horn 50% bigger than those and probably 6 more at least as long but several things tell me not to put bolts in them. I always thought that an "eye for a line" came from lots of diverse rock and first ascent experience. I devote my time instead to touching up existing classic routes and making them more pleasant to climb by digging out grass, dirt and lichen that might otherwise end up in your eyes. I don't get to name it with some Led Zepplin lyrics and get my name in the guidebook but if Wendy goes and leaves some skin there then it's good enough for me. Yes, you don't need to flame me with how cleaning is like bolting but I did say great routes. Sons of Yesterday was a jungle rivaling anything in the Gorge until 1984 and the cleaning job it took is Valley legend; hummocks of munge that you could stand on tumbling down Serenity Crack. If you have good, fun, clean trade routes then you can climb them as warm-ups rather than longer epics; its a good way to get more mileage out of less rock.

Third, the slippery slope post says it all perfectly. I remember when the fixed anchor ban hit Arches National Park, after DP's mega high profile slacklining above the highway. It was horrific and effectively ended climbing there. It made it against the law to even replace webbing thread-throughs or anchors on trees. The the entire Park Service was looking at making it national policy. Grid bolting everything, especially in a high non-climber traffic area, is exactly what the road to regulation looks like. What's grid bolting? I'd say if your feet are anywhere close to the last bolt when you're clipping the next one that you're in grid territory.

Lastly, I'm not necessarily opposed to good anchors, even if it involves retro-fitting [bolts, pins, fixed passive gear], but I also have no problem simply NOT climbing a route that has a notoriously thin anchor on any terrain my partner and I weren't totally comfortable on. Or, for that matter, not climbing new routes that would require eye-sore bolts in places non-climbers frequent. I do think that bolting for clients is objectionable; as bolting a climb down to your limit is whether you are paying for your climbing partner/driller or not. Why can't people be taught to climb as they always have been without purpose-built routes or just stick to routes they can do like everyone else does? This happened on the East Buttress of El Cap when Walt Shipley ripped out a piton and put a bolt six feet above (that can almost be grabbed from the anchor) from it so that his clients could pull across the 10b move and he could guide the whole route @5.9. The Nutcracker, of all routes, was also retrofitted with a belay that remained for at least 10 years because no one wanted to be the bad guy chopper. That bolt and belay have now been gone for over 10 years without incident.

While long-winded, I'm not actually "up in arms" about these bolts, at least not yet and until I take some measurements, but I certainly wouldn't want to see lots more bolted routes of this length anywhere. I think everyone agrees there the is an important limit somewhere (as to how many bolts over how much rock in what location) and that it should be clarified as best as possible where that line is. I would think that if I drilled a bolt ladder interspersed with one hook and one head placement straight up the Disabled Lookout or the Horn that people would be like, "Uh, dude...."

davidn
28/02/2013
4:07:20 PM
On 28/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Where and when will the uneccessary overbolting stop, without people making
>it an agenda?

I think I suggested earlier that it wouldn't, ever, regardless of the agenda stuff. Happy to be proven wrong, but if you take the long view and ignore a lot of history that many newer climbers don't know (and increasingly, won't know), then you can definitely expect more bolts to be added than pruned to any cliff. Run that out over 500 years and see what you get. Think the bolt-gunners hang on chockstone's every posted word? Suspect not!

I'm actually curious to see if the mass de-bolting of Windjammer Wall (?) will work, and if so for what period... And if Point Perp will re-sprout the very small amount of lost ironmongery.

Taking a *huge* step back from climbing's ingrained 'isms', you could perhaps understand the perspective of other segments of the community, including those that get guided and don't live for climbing like the rest of us that are enslaved to it, that having bolts there in case they need them (on trad climbs) is better than not.

Again, not condoning. Just cynical.
uwhp510
28/02/2013
4:44:22 PM
On 28/02/2013 ratherbeclimbinv9 wrote:
>On 28/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>Where and when will the uneccessary overbolting stop, without people making it an agenda?
>
>I think I suggested earlier that it wouldn't, ever, regardless of the
>agenda stuff. Happy to be proven wrong, but if you take the long view
>and ignore a lot of history that many newer climbers don't know (and increasingly,
>won't know), then you can definitely expect more bolts to be added than
>pruned to any cliff. Run that out over 500 years and see what you get.
> Think the bolt-gunners hang on chockstone's every posted word? Suspect
>not!
>
>I'm actually curious to see if the mass de-bolting of Windjammer Wall
>(?) will work, and if so for what period... And if Point Perp will re-sprout
>the very small amount of lost ironmongery.
>
>Taking a *huge* step back from climbing's ingrained 'isms', you could
>perhaps understand the perspective of other segments of the community,
>including those that get guided and don't live for climbing like the rest
>of us that are enslaved to it, that having bolts there in case they need
>them (on trad climbs) is better than not.
>
>Again, not condoning. Just cynical.


Its cheaper and easier to take bolts out (yes even recessed rings) than it is to put them in.

Just sayin...
Maadness
28/02/2013
4:48:14 PM

>Taking a *huge* step back from climbing's ingrained 'isms', you could
>perhaps understand the perspective of other segments of the community,
>including those that get guided and don't live for climbing like the rest
>of us that are enslaved to it, that having bolts there in case they need
>them (on trad climbs) is better than not.
>
>Again, not condoning. Just cynical.


Viva via ferrata

nmonteith
28/02/2013
5:08:22 PM
On 28/02/2013 uwhp510 wrote:
>Every time
>something gets retro-ed or some shitty little over-bolted filler route
>gets wedged in, it contributes to a growing acceptance of retro-bolting
>and shitty little filler routes. If you don't think that's true, head
>down to Windjammer Wall and see what's gone on there (but do it before
>the weather fines up and it all gets reversed).

Have you actual done any of the new Windjammer routes? They are hardly shitty little filler routes! Every one of them would get 2+ stars (out of 3) in the Bluies or Nowra. I presume when you start chopping you are starting with the original retrobolts on Turning of the Tide. It's funny how that route has stood there for 20+ years untouched when it has 5 or more retrobolts in it.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
28/02/2013
5:18:41 PM
On 28/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>I presume when you start chopping you are starting with the original retrobolts on Turning of the Tide. It's funny how that route has stood there for 20+ years untouched when it has 5 or more retrobolts in it.

Your knowledge of these things is far in excess of mine. What else around the country has been retro-ed? Just how big is the problem for those who perceive it to be so?
One Day Hero
28/02/2013
7:12:17 PM
On 28/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:

>Have you actual done any of the new Windjammer routes? They are hardly
>shitty little filler routes! Every one of them would get 2+ stars (out
>of 3) in the Bluies or Nowra.

So what needs to happen next is that they get pruned back to sensible mixed routes (as discussed) and all will be well.............except that a lot of folk have a problem with the retroed escape route, which is going to have to be dealt with. Oh, and any more new routes squeezed closer to the trad lines would be "regrettable"

> I presume when you start chopping you are
>starting with the original retrobolts on Turning of the Tide. It's funny
>how that route has stood there for 20+ years untouched when it has 5 or
>more retrobolts in it.

8 retrobolts on Turning of the Tide, I believe. Look, they were placed before I ever climbed the route, I never knew it any differently. Incidentally, I find the retro job on that route very odd. Some unprotectable runouts where a ledge fall is on the cards, some bolts just over a meter apart, some bolts less than a meter from perfect cam slots. Conclusion; Greg James didn't really have his shit together, and was probably in too much of a hurry!

I get a bit sick of this lame argument of yours suggesting that debolters must adopt a completely consistent position in order to have any validity. Can you please lay out for me the completely consistent position of bolters and retrobolters? Like....if you're going to place one retrobolt, shouldn't you also retrobolt every single route everywhere?

davidn
28/02/2013
7:31:05 PM
On 28/02/2013 uwhp510 wrote:
>Its cheaper and easier to take bolts out (yes even recessed rings) than
>it is to put them in.
>
>Just sayin...

One thing that never fails to amaze me is the amount of bolts and glue (and money) some people have put into the cliffs. Possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars I would think, in some fringe cases... 2000+ routes x 10 bolts each + glue.... It's got to be prodigious.

So while I agree it would cost some money to keep playing the game, some people seem to be able to add bolts week in week out to cliffs in one location or another.

Anyhow, time will tell. I'm sure by the time i'm 90 we'll have a good idea one way or another - presuming I am lucid enough to care ;) Either way - bolting or chopping - it's a lot of effort for no direct personal benefit, all things considered (ok I guess this is arguable if you consider ego boosts to be beneficial in the scheme of things).

nmonteith
28/02/2013
8:17:34 PM
On 28/02/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 28/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>
>>Have you actual done any of the new Windjammer routes?

I'm just mystified that you have spent at least 4 days climbing on a windjammer since the new routes got done and you still haven't tried any of them? They don't bite. You might even enjoy them.

>So what needs to happen next is that they get pruned back to sensible
>mixed routes (as discussed) and all will be well.............

By xx comments above it sound like he/you/someone is planning to remove them all. (when the weather fines up). I'm happy to see some pruning with direct person to person consultation with the original equippers. Don't be shy. I didn't see much person to person discussion when you were at the same crag with them a month or so ago. I just saw mad rapping and hammering!

>except that
>a lot of folk have a problem with the retroed escape route, which is going
>to have to be dealt with. Oh, and any more new routes squeezed closer to
>the trad lines would be "regrettable"

It was a pretty crappy route really. A bit ledgy. If its a retro then the bolts got to go...

>I get a bit sick of this lame argument of yours suggesting that debolters
>must adopt a completely consistent position in order to have any validity.
>Can you please lay out for me the completely consistent position of bolters
>and retrobolters? Like....if you're going to place one retrobolt, shouldn't
>you also retrobolt every single route everywhere?

There is never a consistent argument for anything! All I'm doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of climbing history. I think this whole Windjammer thing has really been blown well out of proportion. Apart from a couple of retrobolts (which I disagreed with) the argument is really over route style - and that style has been historically set by the first ascentist. What seems to be happening is that this is no longer the case. All proposed new routes now need to be aprroved by Damo in advance.

nmonteith
28/02/2013
8:33:22 PM
On 28/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 28/02/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>>I presume when you start chopping you are starting with the original
>retrobolts on Turning of the Tide. It's funny how that route has stood
>there for 20+ years untouched when it has 5 or more retrobolts in it.
>
>Your knowledge of these things is far in excess of mine. What else around
>the country has been retro-ed? Just how big is the problem for those who
>perceive it to be so?

Probably the majority of retrobolting has been happening at urban crags. Places like Camels Hump, Werribie, Kangaroo Point, mt keira, most of Sydney. Nowra has practicly no trad routes these days - even the fun trad cracks have been sadly ringed, In the Blue Mtns there has been a lot of retrobolting of classics by the first ascentists themselves. The Martin Pircher era of Shipley (late 90s?) saw a lot of mass retrobolting of mixed walls that somehow didn't get chopped. These routes are now incredibly popular but incredibly repetitive. Mitch and others have been retroing galore at Bardens. I believe Gerry in Tassie has been retroing a few of his older scary routes around Launceston.
mikllaw
28/02/2013
8:55:18 PM
I feel that people don't always see that the 2 styles require different amounts of space; a sport climb needs about 2 arms width (2 m) between routes (1 arm or 1 m either side). If you place a sport route that close to a trad route, the trad route dissapears.

I suggest that (without cracks or other defining features) that a trad route needs at least 3 m either side, more on long pitches, and even more if the route is a wanderer (such as "climb crack for gear with frequent excursions for a few metres either side to reach the jugs").

A lot of these 'top new routes' are based on both the impressionistic lines on photo-topos, and also on the notion that you can rightly bolt sport routes a metre and bit to one side of an old trad route.

Miguel75
28/02/2013
9:00:17 PM
On 28/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:
>The people arguing against the bolts also have their own agendas, we see
>it all the time on chockstone, trying to put on a show about how hardcore
>they are. Reputation is their money, reputation is their hidden agenda...
>well not so hidden, quite obvious actually.

I would like to be hardcore. Unfortunately too many people have seen me climb, and I'm too honest about how big a gumby I am, to be anything even resembling hardcore. In saying that, if I said I grew up skating and listening to Black Flag/Rollins and Minor Threat, would that lend anything to my 'reputation'?

>Andrew is an easy target, that's why everyone is lining up against him,
>period.

I think Andrew actually sounds like a pretty good dude. It takes a lot of energy to set up a program like his. Kudos to him and his associates for their hard work. I do feel there's a little bit missing; see CJ's post.

...SNIP...
>...did miguel chop the bolts on the traverse of the initiation?...

Not yet:) I can only comment on where I've spent time and what I've climbed, or tried to. To date I haven't climbed the Initiation. And for the record I've actually replaced dodgy lower-offs and plan to fix a few bolts that are missing hangers too:) My goal is to be an ambi-climber; granted it'll take work, much like turning left, though ideally I'd like to be able to climb both bolted and natural routes...

Some bolting seems silly. I recently saw a few new bolts (1 x ring and 2 x FH) at Camels Hump, between Wee Ripper and Hawker which to me feel like a squeeze route. It seems you have to use holds from either of the two climbs and so doesn't add much in the way of fun climbing, though maybe I'm missing something. And the bolts next to the crack system on top of Redex suck big time!

I like to climb. I like bolts. I like to climb with bolts but not if they're unnecessary.

>...but its an outrage that Andrew
>has placed bolts on a small boulder no one goes near? For which the bolts
>need to be chopped and he needs to be publicly denigrated?
>This only happened because Andrew is not in the "in crowd."

I reckon many people seem to have responded negatively to Andrew's replies, not so much that he's in the wrong crowd. I think Minor Threat sums it up well in the song 'Good Guys Don't Wear White';

Good guys, bad guys
Which is which?
The white collar worker (bolter?)
Or the digger of the ditch? (tradster?)
Man, who's to say who's the better man?
I'm doing the very best I can
Best I can

No need to stop placing ALL bolts. But if you do need to place bolts, follow Minor Threat's lead and do the best you can; which to me means matching the flavour of the area.

>Many of the people whinging about
>the bolts have probably placed more bolts than Andrew.

Maybe, maybe not!

>If you want to make this about good and evil, stop using all bolts (including
>raps), and stop using chalk.

??

>This thread is not about bolts but rather about egos. And, I must admit,
>you're all so awesome.

Agreed. Except for Shortman because he's rad:)
patto
1/03/2013
4:34:11 AM
The simple thing is that people are always going to have differing opinions. By deferring to the FFA or the existing crag style you are creating a boundary that is much more define than no boundary at all.

In short if you want to bolt go find a empty piece of rock with no establish climbing OR an areas where sport bolting is an existing style.

The Horn is an establish crag and it is NOT a sport crag. What gives others the right to change that. (I would not even describe Peroxide Blond as 'sport'.)
rolsen1
1/03/2013
9:35:34 AM
On 28/02/2013 singersmith wrote:
>I don't know how this could possibly be construed as an ego issue; I'd
>maintain it's exactly the opposite - that is, a concern for everybody else
>and that which can't be known (the future). It would seem then that 90%
>of climbers who post here are egotistical jerks; I don't get that sense
>at all, this isn't Supertopo. I think it's a public service issue and that
>is what concerns me and warrants logging those concerns for the record.
>I don't really want to chime in much more until I see the bolts first hand
>but I do have a couple of thoughts.
>
>snip

Personally, I believe that all Victorian and Tasmanian climbers (the only two places I've climbed extensively) act in the best interests of both the environment and rock climbing in general.

I'd like think all FAs and bolters have climbing's (and the environment's) best interest in mind when the do the things they do. And I believe that is overwhelmingly the case.

There is no evidence to suggest Andrew doesn't as well. There is no evidence to suggest that this is the first step towards a retro-bolting spree. Does that mean that he or anyone else that ever places a bolt or develops a climb will always make the best decisions? Of course not. Does it mean that because they make either mistakes or do things that not everyone agrees with (if that was even possible) they are unethical? No.

I'm not really sure of the reason why people are posting how they are posting either, ego was just a guess and seems to have touched a raw nerve with a few.

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