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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 4 of 14. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 260 | 261 to 271
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
VIC Buffalo The Horn Environs (General) The Horn [ Horn Guide ] 

Author
Bolting at The Horn, Mount Buffalo
Andrew Davis
9/02/2013
12:06:20 AM
On 7/02/2013 kieranl wrote:
>On 7/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:
>>a grid of bolts. Buffalo is know for its discrete carrots and not sure
>>why they were changed to FH on Parrot

>Carrots (I assume we're talking glue-in machine bolts rather than traditional
>drive-in carrots) are good for low-visibility in public areas but apart
>from that I don't see any advantage to using them over expansion bolts
>with fixed hangers. I don't really see carrots as being a great Buffalo
>tradition it's just what was cheap and realtively quick. Let's just acknowledge
>that there's is an area of disagreement over carrots v fixed hangers(of
>any type) and leave it at that.
>Parrot on a stick must be getting towards 25 years old now and was hand-drilled.
>Hand-drilling 12mm holes at Buffalo was not fun. At the time I'd never
>even heard of glue-in bolts so it was a choice between expansions or traditional
>carrot. The carrots would have been less work but I opted for the better
>anchor.
>
Hi Kieran,
Sorry i mean no disrespect, actually the opposite i love that climb. If you could have seen my sisters at age 45 last sunday do her first lead climb ever on Parrot, and her son age 16 carefully balanced his way up it 3 times before going on to climb profanities and big Fun. So thanks for all your efforts 20 years ago.
Im just saying i personally like the PH as when you walk into the area the first thing you see are those hangers. Having said that ive climbed there with Canadains, USA, Europe and other states Blueys etc, and they are so confused why we still use PH. So i agree it is personal preference and i think your in the majority, though i wish for Buffalo you werent
kieranl
9/02/2013
10:25:13 AM
Andrew,
I haven't seen the abbreviation PH before. What does it mean? Portable Hanger? Maybe I've missed something and it's now a common term

Climboholic
11/02/2013
11:09:09 AM
On 7/02/2013 JMK wrote:
>
>Enough is said on this forum by those defending the ethics in this sport
>that simultaneously threaten access so chill with the hypocrisy.

What do you mean by this???
Andrew Davis
11/02/2013
3:22:03 PM
On 9/02/2013 kieranl wrote:
>Andrew,
>I haven't seen the abbreviation PH before. What does it mean? Portable
>Hanger? Maybe I've missed something and it's now a common term

Yeah probably just my lazy way of writing if a BR is either fixed or portable FH, PH. Not common, but in context not too hard to work out. Its a bit more common to run into new climbers at Buffalo with no portable bolt plates because they think BR are fixed hanger and lending them half a dozen.
maadness
11/02/2013
8:01:19 PM
Its a
>bit more common to run into new climbers at Buffalo with no portable bolt
>plates because they think BR are fixed hanger and lending them half a dozen.


I would of been surprised that they knew what a 'portable' bolt plate was for anyway.
Andrew Davis
11/02/2013
9:31:03 PM
>
>I would of been surprised that they knew what a 'portable' bolt plate
>was for anyway.

yeah pretty handy the portable ones, the non-portable variety are just too much messing around with the leader and seconder carrying a spanner to do them up then undo them

Miguel75
11/02/2013
9:41:58 PM
On 11/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:
>
>>
>>I would of been surprised that they knew what a 'portable' bolt plate
>>was for anyway.
>
>yeah pretty handy the portable ones, the non-portable variety are just
>too much messing around with the leader and seconder carrying a spanner
>to do them up then undo them

See, you're getting the hang of it now;)
Andrew Davis
11/02/2013
10:11:55 PM
One day Hero from ACT- back on topic and if the right people decide they want to remove anything that will improve the area for all climbers (not just your views) then it will be good news not bad.

Secondly I take it because you commented on the area that you have been there. If so you would know the Horn only has a few trad lines, dick selector, Pintle and Buttocks and possibly Mood for a day. But only Pintle is the commonly climbed line, the other trads get very little traffic and Mood the ugly flared crack gets none from what i see. All the others are sport so maybe you want to take another look at the guide before you go stating its all or mostlly a trad area, fact is this particular crag is mostly sport. Remove the bolt on LHV the only decent trad line there, be my guest i'm not a fan and not responsible, on Profanities, i am not responsible but am a fan. On Easter Island, some people who like to take their friends seconding mightn't be so happy as its a great little warm up and starter for beginners to take a lead rather than second all day. But what the heck if they cant lead Peroxide, Songlines, Dance Alone or Big Fun then they shouldn't be there i right
Andrew Davis
11/02/2013
10:23:44 PM
>
>See, you're getting the hang of it now;)

Yeah Miguel maybe i, and i laugh at quite a few comments but some people still punch well below the belt and make assumptions and judge intentions pretty quickly

IdratherbeclimbingM9
11/02/2013
10:34:27 PM
On 11/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:
>One day Hero from ACT- back on topic and if the right people decide they
>want to remove anything that will improve the area for all climbers (not
>just your views) then it will be good news not bad.

Who in your opinion are the right people?

>
>Secondly I take it because you commented on the area that you have been
>there. If so you would know the Horn only has a few trad lines, dick selector,
>Pintle and Buttocks and possibly Mood for a day. But only Pintle is the
>commonly climbed line, the other trads get very little traffic and Mood
>the ugly flared crack gets none from what i see.

Have you counted the lines in the latest guide? It would seem that your experience of the place is different to mine at least...

>All the others are sport so maybe you want to take another look at the guide before you go stating its all or mostlly a trad area, fact is this particular crag is mostly sport.

I agree with you in as much as, your bolting friends seem to be having that effect on the place.

>Remove the bolt on LHV the only decent trad line there, be my guest
>i'm not a fan and not responsible, on Profanities, i am not responsible
>but am a fan. On Easter Island, some people who like to take their friends
>seconding mightn't be so happy as its a great little warm up and starter
>for beginners to take a lead rather than second all day. But what the
>heck if they cant lead Peroxide, Songlines, Dance Alone or Big Fun then
>they shouldn't be there i right

Are you aware that Peter Watling, one of the first ascentionists of Pintle, chopped the bolt he placed on the original version of Pintle?
If a first ascentionist did that to his route, I wonder what your bolting friend/s would make of the history behind that decision, as I note that you refer others on this thread to ask around, and/or read the guidebook/s. It seems to me that you are kind of in the situation of the pot calling the kettle black?
Andrew Davis
11/02/2013
11:01:30 PM
Yeah M9, im aware of the original bolt on start of the second pitch that goes through that tight pinch. I think few climb that route, but thats a pretty unique little crux that often jams a sling or some climbers try to leave some old faded tape threaded there, and naive climbers use it or cut it off the following year. Others start up LHV then try to step across. The decision to remove it i dont think has made much difference either way as i understand its placement was pretty awkward. Instead turn left up LHV or right around the corner up Big Fun are the best lines to follow.

Your other points i don't follow and im starting to think you just like to argue for the sake of it. Please name a few more classic trad lines in the area of the Horn we are talking about, I could give you a dozen sport climbs that have been there a long time.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
11/02/2013
11:22:27 PM
On 11/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:
>Yeah M9, im aware of the bolt on start of the second pitch Pitch that goes
>through that pintch hardly anyone does, but thats a pretty unique little
>crux that often now jams a sling or some climbers try to leave some old
>faded tape threaded their for vary climber to use or cut off the following
>year. Others start up LHV then try to step across.

That bolt no longer exists. It is the one that PW placed and later chopped; but the point I was making is that he made up his own mind about the ethics of the place, and chopped it for that reason.

>
>Your other points i don't follow and im starting to think you just like
>to argue for the sake of it. Please name a few more classic trad lines
>on the area of the Horn we are talking about,

I have an appointment to keep at the moment, but I will get back to you regarding this. Fair warning though, I am not referring to "classic trad lines", instead I am referring to trad lines vs sport or retro'd lines; and if you have not worked it out yet, I happen to enjoy trad lines that others do not consider to be classics.

>I could give you a dozen sport climbs that have been there a long time.

~> Likewise, I look forward to seeing your list of them.
Andrew Davis
11/02/2013
11:28:41 PM
OK Rod any line you can climb and safely protect with artificial pro will do me.
And i went straight back and edited some typos and poor explanation and you beat me to reply so re-read the last edited post

Miguel75
12/02/2013
12:02:12 AM
On 11/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:
... SNIP...
>And i went straight back and edited some typos and poor explanation and
>you beat me to reply so re-read the last edited post

Now we're all going to have to re-read the thread that includes 'EDIT' etiquette;)

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=5&MessageID=9910&PagePos=0&Sort=&Replies=85&MsgPagePos=0
uwhp510
12/02/2013
10:08:04 AM
On 11/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:
>OK Rod any line you can climb and safely protect with artificial pro will
>do me.

Since when did "safely protectable" become a required attribute for trad routes?
uwhp510
12/02/2013
10:18:28 AM
On 11/02/2013 Andrew Davis wrote:
>OK Rod any line you can climb and safely protect with artificial pro will
>do me.

So the only thing I've done at The Horn is Peroxide Blond, but these look like contenders for stuff that can be done safely on gear.



singersmith
12/02/2013
10:57:33 AM
Andrew,

First of all, I've read this whole thread three times and didn't hear anyone say how they thought these bolts are an awesome addition to the crag. I heard varying degrees of people trying to be nice about it and one guy who could care less. Frankly, I wouldn't expect those bolts to remain for long and the honorable thing to do would actually be to clean and patch them yourself and save someone else the time and effort.

"I have no idea who you are, how you were introduced to climbing, who you climb with, and what your experience has been".
I laughed out loud! Like he said, the climbing community is extremely small. I've never met Stu or know how he started climbing either but I still could have predicted exactly what his reaction would be to this thread and I still know his character well enough that I'd sit in a tent with him for a month and expect to have a laugh. I know because we're monkeys in a pack and monkeys have friends and monkeys talk because they're packs of monkeys. That's why it's a bit funny when you have a whinge about avatars and anonymity. We all basically know each other and if we don't we just ask someone else.

For my part, I started climbing somewhere with a strong mountain tradition and where climbing is a mentoring pursuit. We don't even have outdoor education in Utah because everybody actually does stuff in the outdoors. My dad had me crawling up rocks I shouldn't have been carrying fishing gear and guns by the time I was about 10. When you're fifteen and psyched on roped climbing you don't get taken out by ghastly knuckleheads from TAFE, you get taken out by a gruff bearded dude in his 50's called Jack that you met when you walked up to the base of the cliff to have a look around. He teaches you how to not kill yourself, respect the mountains, and then imparts the knowledge you need when you need it. When you have questions or want to know if you should splash bolts across those obvious and classic unclimbed boulders on the approach you call him and he kindly explains that, sure, you are free to do such a thing but it is probably not a good idea and the community might collectively frown. Then he'd take you out, have you set them up as a TR, and climb them with you. As was noted above, rigging safe TRs is the first thing noobs should be doing anyway.

I think it is worth considering that people like Geoff Gledhill have been eagerly scouring Buffalo for new routes for almost fifty years. I've been dragged along so you can trust me that he has been everywhere and looked at just about everything. He and others have looked at those faces hundreds of times and prudently decided not to bolt them if they even consciously considered it. The British figured out a long time ago that if you bolt everything down to your level then there will be no projects left when standards advance in the future. There are loads of classic hard routes in the UK that have been TRed but haven't had a "first ascent" because no one has been willing to drag a rope up it and tape a hook on the only flake. There's also loads of "routes" that have been climbed silently and people walked away because they were just out bouldering or monkeying around. In Yosemite it is said that "If you can't climb it, don't".

"so I hope those who decide something needs removing show logic and restraint, and donít just think out of self interests or personal disdain for bolts."
An ironic statement because, had you asked me beforehand, I would have advised you to use some logic and restraint and don't just think out of self interest or your affection for the ease of clipping bolts. Make sure your additions don't detract; you lose nothing by walking away and leaving the rock exactly as others have. The Horn is actually my favorite scrambling crag in Oz and, if you count down climbing, I would have done the Pintle more than twenty times in an evening and often climb up there by moonlight. I know its features fairly well. I'm also comfortable third classing onsight to around 18 so any feature up there that is attractive enough to climb and on good rock then there is a high probability I've been over it. Harder or marginal stuff I simply drop a rope down it and TR. Throw a 70 off the top and climb wherever you want with a directional or two, it's pretty fun! I climb by myself because I don't like to talk about it but my point to you is simply that just because there are no bolts, anchors, or names in a book doesn't mean a face hasn't been or does not get climbed and enjoyed thoroughly in its current state. The rocks have a lot of stories to tell from before you came and when you're not there and they are going to have a lot more in the future.

Additionally, I agree about the potential ranger/park issue if bolts get sprayed around too much. Ranger Johnny never cares until the monkeys don't police themselves properly and keep it all low key. Then they decide to care and things are never the same again. There is a balance there that the community tries to maintain.

It's clear that you're keen on climbing, Andrew, but you present yourself as being quite unfamiliar with it.

Rock is scarce in Oz, tread lightly.

The Pintle LHV, direct sit start to the body sloper (unrated and doesn't need a bolt)
One Day Hero
12/02/2013
1:04:53 PM
Thank you Singer for taking the time to explain something which I couldn't be bothered repeating to yet another ignorant drill owner. Is there any chance that someone could make that post sticky in the safer cliffs section? This shit is going to come up again and again.

On 12/02/2013 singersmith wrote:
>I think it is worth considering that people like Geoff Gledhill have been
>eagerly scouring Buffalo for new routes for almost fifty years. I've been
>dragged along so you can trust me that he has been everywhere and looked
>at just about everything. He and others have looked at those faces hundreds
>of times and prudently decided not to bolt them if they even consciously
>considered it.

Andrew, this is the most important part of Singer's post. You have arrived a couple of decades late to a popular area which has seen frenetic development by motivated and talented climbers. Tough shit, if you wanted to develop worthwhile new routes close to the car at Buffalo, you should have been born earlier.

No one is trying to prevent anyone from climbing these routes safely (or conveniently). Just throw a toprope down and your mum can climb to her heart's content, without any risk. That's the part I find so fuching weird. You talk as though toproping is somehow inferior to leading, but then place bolts so close together that leading on them is indistinguishable from toproping..........doesn't make any damn sense!
kieranl
12/02/2013
4:33:34 PM
On 12/02/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>Andrew, this is the most important part of Singer's post. You have arrived
>a couple of decades late to a popular area which has seen frenetic development
>by motivated and talented climbers. Tough shit, if you wanted to develop
>worthwhile new routes close to the car at Buffalo, you should have been
>born earlier.
While not disputing the gist of what ODH has to say, I do call bullshit on this.
There's still the odd good climb left to do within a bees-dick of the car, none of which require retro-bolting anyone else's route, or indeed, placing many bolts at all. I haven't climbed seriously at Buffalo for about 20 years but a few of the things I scoped out back then are still not done.
patto
12/02/2013
5:05:38 PM
I agree. There is plenty of room for grid bolting a small <10m cliff than isn't an established cliff. Grid bolting at Buffalo is always going to be controversial but it will be far less of an issue if it isn't an existing crag.

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There are 271 messages in this topic.

 

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