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Crag & Route Beta

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Perisher Backcountry ski/climb trip info!

climberman

23-Aug-2012
11:04:37 PM

On 23/08/2012 climberman wrote:
>I live to be frustrated. It's part of my appeal as a father, husband and
>randonee skier.
This is funny. I meant to say 'I live to be frustrating' !

citationx - I reckon it's easier to ski in alpine mode on a binding arrangement with an alpine mode. I can't see that we're ever going to agree. That's cool from my end.

As long as people are actually out and about and enjoying the main range I don't care if he sticks his NTN boots into a set of trekkers and tries to force them into an NNBC set of skates and does ski ballet on 'em.

TonyB

24-Aug-2012
7:25:47 AM

On 17/08/2012 Mike Bee wrote:
>Tell that to the icy crud that was supposed to be snow on the Main Range
>when I was there last month.

There's always lots like that on the main range mid winter. Good technique will get you up through anything. I don't think most people learn what good climbing technique is, because of use of heavy gear. There's almost always good snow somewhere to have fun skiing down if you look around a bit. Usually you can avoid the really nasty stuff. Funnily enough though, coming back from one trip down from Guthega trig, everywhere was thick breakable crust covering deepish powder. I put my pack down, did a test and it looked like being a nightmare ski down to the dam. I put my pack back on and went for it. The extra weight of my pack and extra aggression, allowed me to break through the crust and do magificent teles all the way down.

Still, most people will find heavy gear easier. If you want to try extra lightweight gear, go in the spring on sunny days. Ego snow.

Another thing I find interesting is the position of the hands in teles. I learn trad technique with arms high for better dynamic balance (try balancing a stick with a weight on one end on the palm of your hand - best with centre of gravity high). Modern style teles teach arms low. Except for one of the very best downhill tele skiers I've ever seen, who travelled only with a knife. He cut a single thin tree branch for a pole when he arrived at a resort. He held it horizontally and used it side to side. Only good for resort skiing of course.

Mr Poopypants

24-Aug-2012
8:03:57 AM

On 24/08/2012 TonyB wrote:
. He cut a single thin tree branch for a pole when he
>arrived at a resort. He held it horizontally and used it side to side.
> Only good for resort skiing of course.

Called a "lurk". It's what the original tele ers did. See them a bit in NZ & Canada. Tele boarders use them, too.

uwhp510

24-Aug-2012
10:49:58 AM

On 24/08/2012 TonyB wrote:
> I learn trad technique with arms high for better dynamic balance (try
>balancing a stick with a weight on one end on the palm of your hand - best
>with centre of gravity high).

This makes no sense. As a though experiment, which of the following structures is more stable;

>Modern style teles teach arms low.

Modern tele technique is not based on a global conspiracy involving the adoption of techniques which are poor balance wise.


Eduardo Slabofvic

24-Aug-2012
10:53:06 AM

On 24/08/2012 Mr Poopypants wrote:
> Tele boarders

There are people who do that! That's just plain weird.

TonyB

24-Aug-2012
12:07:17 PM

On 24/08/2012 uwhp510 wrote:
>This makes no sense. As a though experiment, which of the following structures
>is more stable;

Yes, that is most people's immediate reaction. However, I said dynamic, not static stability. Your example shows static stability, where low CG is best.

Try balancing a broom on your hand, heavy end down, then heavy end up. You will find it easiest with the heavy end at the top, ie high CG !

Arm position is also influenced by the style of tele. Trad has the rear foot weighted. The weighting becomes more equal at speed. Body leans back slightly. Rear heel is well off the ski, easiest with flexible boots. Very tough on the thighs with long runs. It gives a carved turn with narrow tracks in deep snow. Easy to get even beginners tele-ing. The style that followed this was front foot weighted. Easy to pick with skidded turns. Not pretty IMHO. Heavy gear was essential because it was easy to trip up. Beginners always tend to weight the front foot and wonder why it's so hard to turn. Body position was compact, which favored hands low. Modern teles are almost like a modern parallel but with feet reversed. Equal weighting. Skis turn using camber and side-cut. Heavy gear is needed to better control edging. Looks great. It is also more compact than trad.

uwhp510

24-Aug-2012
2:56:03 PM

Yeah I've done a fair old bit of telemarking, on both light (Asolo leathers and Morotto Light Telemark stuff) and sort of medium (1st or 2nd gen T2s, Riva Z comp bindings mounted on some random old Alpine Touring Skis) both on the tows and in the back country, and I always skied really low, particularly with the light gear.

The whole arms up in the air thing from people on old light gear is in my view more influenced by the fact that the poles used to be quite long, and in order to poke the snow for balance, you need your arms right up in the air. The problem is that poking the snow for balance on the uphill side puts your weight back and away from the fall line, which is bad.

As far as ski weighting goes, I reckon it should be 50-50, in order to get both skis loaded up and carving equally. I think that the crappy skidding turns are way more common from people on old gear, because you needed to stomp your heal down hard on the front ski in order to control it.

There's a whole bunch of mechanics going on with the broom balancing thing that I can go into (with dodgy ms paint diagrams) that say that I'm right, which I'll get onto when I'm not at work. Nothing I like better than arguing physics on the internet :)


SteveC

24-Aug-2012
7:15:23 PM

You've gotta get your arms up. It's simply not possible to do a tele turn without the Punch!
Each turn is like lunging forward to deliver a haymaker to an imaginary foe. Or an actual snowboarder.

Also arms up for balance for normal skiing too. Ever tried walking a slackline with your arms down? Higher is better, each movement has greater leverage to counteract your silly legs. It's skiing not Riverdance!

TonyB

26-Aug-2012
7:56:24 AM

On 24/08/2012 SteveC wrote:
> Ever tried walking a slackline
>with your arms down? Higher is better, each movement has greater leverage
>to counteract your silly legs.

Yes, I was about to give the same example. Contrast the dynamic balance on a slack line with CG high, to the slow, static balance on a tyrolean Bear Grylls style, with CG low.

citationx

26-Aug-2012
8:52:14 AM

On 24/08/2012 uwhp510 wrote:
>As far as ski weighting goes, I reckon it should be 50-50, in order to
>get both skis loaded up and carving equally.

I can't remember if the link was on chocky or not, but they put pressure pads in some dude's boots - someone considered top class telemark skier. the most weight he had at any point on his back foot was 37%. Good luck with your 50-50. I think the point is you need a lot of pressure on the back so that the ski doesn't just skid along as you mentioned.
post edit: "pressure telemark 37%" gives this link: http://www.telemarktips.com/ForebodyPress.html

uwhp510

27-Aug-2012
3:29:31 PM

On 26/08/2012 citationx wrote:
>On 24/08/2012 uwhp510 wrote:
>the most weight he had at any point on his back foot was 37%. Good luck
>with your 50-50.

Whatever... 37% ~ 50%. I'm pretty sure that aiming for a 50-50 weight distribution is worthwhile effectively you are trying to maximise the pressure on the back foot. Its not like you load up for a turn, and then go "righto, 37% weighting on the back foot... whoa that'll do 'er... don't want too much weight on the back foot."

>I think the point is you need a lot of pressure on the
>back so that the ski doesn't just skid along as you mentioned.

Yes... clearly that is the point.

In any case, with the right skiing stance it's not possible to evenly distribute your weight between your two feet, with one foot further down the hill than the other. Its like carrying a couch up a flight of stairs. The bloke at the bottom of the stairs gets more of the weight.

TonyB

28-Aug-2012
8:08:14 AM

On 26/08/2012 citationx wrote:
someone considered top class telemark skier.
>the most weight he had at any point on his back foot was 37%.

Interesting article. Here's a pic of the same fellow http://www.telemarktips.com/UstsaHood.html Clearly weight forward but both skis parallel, turning on the big camber and sidecut. Double camber lightweight touring skis aren't well suited to this. Doing teles on skinny XC racing skis is a real test ... I broke a tip doing such at the top of Mt Stirling ... skiied down in snowboard fashion on one ski. I now keep my skating skis in the car for a blast after a tour ... great feeling if you've never tried 'em.

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