Crag & Route Beta

Author	Perisher Backcountry ski/climb trip info!
citationx 16-Aug-2012 11:38:31 AM	On 16/08/2012 climberman wrote: >On 16/08/2012 citationx wrote: >>On 15/08/2012 climberman wrote: >>>On 15/08/2012 simey wrote: >> >>>Except you need to learn to telemark. >> >>No you don't. perfectly easy to do parallel turns on free heels. > >Umm, the OP has not used them before and people are suggesting he use >lighter XCD or light touring gear. The OP has done downhill skiing. So, >yep, you 'can' parallel or snowplough or stem christie or whatever on light >touring and XCD gear. But not generally on your first day. Whereas he'll >be able to downhill from minute one on AT gear. > >Having no experience with up, he's likely to suffer immensely on either >during this part of the journey ! Wow, with this and Paulie's posts I'm totally lost. Do you mean to argue that he's going to be unable to use a pair of salomon scaled touring skis on the first day with confidence even though he's a good skier? And you're claiming this is because the skis have free heels not locked down? Or because he'll be using a heavy pack that he may never have tried skiing with? I don't understand your line of argument. Unless I'm naturally gifted, I never had a problem wedging, ploughing, turning, anything, when I first used teles. If/when you sink into a parallel or wedge or plough turn (ie, a non-tele turn), your heels are being pushed into the back of the ski anyway, just like an alpine turn. My telemark turns:parallel turns are 50:50 at the moment. My girlfriend, having never used free heels before had no problems keeping up with me going up or coming down hills (snow ploughs, wedge turns) on her first go (and she wasn't even a good downhiller). Also, as a point of the AT gear, listening to others who have/do do it, I find that you're more likely to suffer trying AT for the first time compared to teles. The AT boots are extremely rigid and since the pivot is so far forward shin and calf problems abound for the newbies. Teles have the flex in the foot which allows for a more natural walking/moving motion. I'd love clarity on your "first day" comment and why you think this is so.
climberman 16-Aug-2012 11:48:17 AM	My view is that if you've never done any XC / XCD / Tele before, AT presents the least change required from your existing alpine skiing skillset.
Mike Bee 16-Aug-2012 4:36:40 PM	I can recommend Wilderness Sports in Jindabyne for gear rental. I've rented AT gear from them and was happy enough with it. Have fun in the back country. I gotta say, sounds like a September trip might be better for you if you're going with a 3 season tent as you'll have better chance of better weather. I'd suggest skiing in on day one (catch the lift up from Thredbo is a good option), setting up base camp somewhere nice and then do day trips for the next couple of days. This lets you get used to the skis and terrain without a full size pack. A full pack truly does change things when skiing, so be wary about it. On 15/08/2012 climberman wrote: >I've been having plenty of fun and not much hassle on AT gear and skins >for 20 years (although if I had an ulitmate quiver it would include dynafit-style >bindings and a scaled ski, but only for longer tours, amongst a bunch of >other skis !). Dynafits and scaled skis (Madshus Annums) are what I got sorted with this season. I loved it. I reckon it's probably the ideal combo for Aussie touring. On 16/08/2012 citationx wrote: >Also, as a point of the AT gear, listening to others who have/do do it, >I find that you're more likely to suffer trying AT for the first time compared >to teles. The AT boots are extremely rigid and since the pivot is so far >forward shin and calf problems abound for the newbies. I've never had an issue with it, personally.
SteveC 16-Aug-2012 6:19:26 PM	I'm going to weigh in on this one too, as it's close to home. first question that needs to be answered is what do you want to do out there... If you want to shred some western faces and be totally rad, then get AT gear on alpine skis with full length skins. If it's not dynafit then it's probably going to be heavy for just touring along the range. If you want to tour and enjoy the experience then get some 3 buckle plastic tele boots, a pattern based ski with a good sidecut (the Madshus Annum seems popular at Paddy P). you can bring skins as a backup for unprecedented levels of ice or if you want to climb steeply. Make sure the bindings have a free pivot tour mode. If the sun is shining you can try dropping the knee as you traverse or cruise down mild slopes. otherwise just stick to your parallels like most telemarkers do when the going gets tough. If you want to move quickly but you also want to hate yourself then get XC gear or really light telegear.
simey 16-Aug-2012 10:05:23 PM	On 16/08/2012 SteveC wrote: >If you want to shred some western faces and be totally rad, then get AT gear on alpine skis with full length skins. If you want to be totally rad, then shred western faces on lightweight XC gear.
TonyB 17-Aug-2012 5:00:52 AM	It should be obvious but spend a couple of days getting used to XC skis before heading out with a pack. Don't take a "heavy pack". It's amazing what some people lug with them, even pots and frying pans dangling off the back of the pack. Travel super light - but not to the point of camping in a bivvy bag, also potentially lethal. Make camp, dump the pack and go have some fun. It also helps if you go with someone who knows what they are doing. I started the XC ski school at Charlottes Pass 35 years ago. I took hundred of beginners onto the main range (not all at once ;-) ) and had many doing rough teles on the first day. The hardest thing for downhillers to get used to is the freedom of lightweight gear, for example the ease of doing step turns in difficult situations.
llewg 17-Aug-2012 9:02:12 AM	Hey thanks for the info. AT is sounding pretty promising and might be more suited to a first time out there. What are the boots like for walking around in, or even climbing in? Was thinking i might bring the tools down and look for some steeper slopes to play around on.
trog 17-Aug-2012 9:38:35 AM	There are meant to be some good possibilities now, check out the TLT5 series, that's what I want to give a try http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2011/06/part-2.html There was even a pair for sale on here recently I think? Might be overkill though
vwills 17-Aug-2012 9:58:20 AM	TLT5 mtn boots are super. Quite good to walk in- amazing flex and buckle up quite tight and very very light. The tongue insert adds extra rigidity but I didnt use them on a recent trip. I would take them for prolonged down hill, like US volcano descents but in AUs with the undulating terrain I dont think its that needed. They also are great with my Grivels and ice climb quite acceptably. I have Dynafit bindings on Madshus annums and skins and the whole set up is amazingly light. You still feel like you want to fall backwards when you first start skiing if you are used to downhill bindings and boots but you get used to it pretty well. HAving the pattern base in Australia is a distinct advantage as you can leave the skins off a lot of the time.
ecowain 17-Aug-2012 10:04:15 AM	The TLT5 boots are great. Much lighter and more comfy than "lightweight" tele boots like the excursion and T4. They run narrow and small though, so be aware of that. The tongue is removable for touring too, so increases your ankle flex. OK to walk in, there's a flex point (like a mini teleboot bellows) on them too. I toured from Guthega to Selwyn last week in a pair, using Madshus Epochs mounted with Dynafit bindings. As fast as my old lightweight XC setup, much faster than my tele touring setup. Worked well. Taking them up on the Main Range in a few day's time.
TonyB 17-Aug-2012 11:58:03 AM	On 17/08/2012 ecowain wrote: > Much lighter and more comfy than "lightweight" tele boots like the excursion I bought a pair of Excursions when my first pair of Alpina 2000 NNN BC's eventually fell apart to such a degree that I could no longer use them and I couldn't find an equivalent replacement. I found the Excursions like massive lumps of lead on my feet, certainly not what I'd call "lightweight". They did give more control but I hated them and was grateful to find another pair of light, soft and flexible Alpina 2000's. Alpine Touring with skins is really a different sport and best suited to skiing spectacular spots like the Sentinel and Watsons Crags. It would be much easier for a downhiller to adapt to. If you are an excellent downhiller, this might be your best choice. Extra lightweight gear and skinny skis can handle the steep though, as long as it doesn't get too cruddy. A pic of me before heading down into the deep fluff, between Vail and Aspen, with 2 guides. Skins are not needed for lightweight touring in Australia but are essential for climbing in spots like this, when the snow feels bottomless and poles become totally useless. I was very concerned about how I'd get back up if I fell ... http://www.flickr.com/photos/34423384@N04/7798546786/in/photostream/lightbox/
dalai 17-Aug-2012 12:01:41 PM	Looks nice!
Mike Bee 17-Aug-2012 3:49:18 PM	On 17/08/2012 TonyB wrote: >Extra lightweight gear and skinny skis can handle the steep though, as >long as it doesn't get too cruddy. Based on my experience (I'm not a great skiier), it's way less fun than taking an AT setup though. >Skins are not needed >for lightweight touring in Australia but are essential for climbing in >spots like this, when the snow feels bottomless and poles become totally >useless. I was very concerned about how I'd get back up if I fell ... Tell that to the icy crud that was supposed to be snow on the Main Range when I was there last month. Skins (even just kickers) were essential for climbing then, even with my Madshus Annums.
sbm 17-Aug-2012 4:15:26 PM	>>Skins are not needed >>for lightweight touring in Australia but are essential for climbing in >>spots like this, when the snow feels bottomless and poles become totally >>useless. I was very concerned about how I'd get back up if I fell ... > >Tell that to the icy crud that was supposed to be snow on the Main Range >when I was there last month. Skins (even just kickers) were essential for >climbing then, even with my Madshus Annums. Seconded. Kicker skins at the VERY LEAST or you will be miserable if it's icy. Even though it's a hassle full lengths are worth it for me. In fact unless you know conditions are good, even crampons are worth their weight IMO. It's Australia. Conditions in winter are crap breakable crust, crud, snot, ice 80% of the time, and you need to be able to deal.
climberman 17-Aug-2012 5:23:35 PM	LOVE my ski crampons.
Paulie 23-Aug-2012 8:01:48 PM	On 16/08/2012 citationx wrote: >I'd love clarity on your "first day" comment and why you think this is >so. Citation...we're not saying it's impossible, just not ideal. As you well know, there is a massive diff between groomed resort skiing on freeheels and going out BC where he'll find hard white ice and corn snow on the downhill bits and wind blasted strastrugi in between the 2 inches of shin bleeding ice on top of soft snow with 20kgs on your back, hell I'm not the best tele skiier in the world but even I can confidently tele down groomed blue runs (even on my skate gear...), can't say the same about doing that out BC in hard conditions even with the latest tele gear. The point is, if the idea is to go out and rip some turns, then stick with the gear he's familiar with (AT is closest) as the touring bit is always going to be a bit of a slog anyway, regardless of what system you use.
Paulie 23-Aug-2012 8:03:08 PM	On 17/08/2012 climberman wrote: >LOVE my ski crampons. Word. + kick skins.
climberman 23-Aug-2012 8:36:34 PM	I live to be frustrated. It's part of my appeal as a father, husband and randonee skier.
Zarb 23-Aug-2012 9:26:13 PM	TLT5's here for sale if anyone wants em ;) Ive gone over to the dark side (tele), so don't need em any more!
citationx 23-Aug-2012 9:47:34 PM	On 23/08/2012 Paulie wrote: >On 16/08/2012 citationx wrote: >>I'd love clarity on your "first day" comment and why you think this is >>so. > >Citation...we're not saying it's impossible, just not ideal. etc. Combined with earlier post "If you've never used free heel gear then stick with AT, your 'fun tour' will become a misery otherwise." I had this discussion with climberman off board, and I didn't really respond. but you've brought it up again, so i'll bring it up again... again (I think climberman saw my original post before I deleted it to write this). Paulie, if he's not going to do anything spectacular, and he's never used either AT or tele gear, why will the tour become a misery? One who takes tele skis doesn't have to telemark. You and climberman can't explain this (aristotle never won an argument with "just because"). If he has to free heel to go up into the BC, and he's carrying a massive pack that he's never done on skis of any kind, and he's not going to shred, then please explain why he won't have fun using teles? He has never gone up a hill in skis anyway, so any form of free heeling is going to be new to him. So the part that will be the same (big pack aside) is the coming down. My point is that when turning on teles, in an alpine technique, the heels are pushed into the skis anyway. You can snowplough, parallel, christie, whatever you want, in both teles and alpines because the heel will always be pushed into the ski doing these turns. In this case whether he uses AT gear or tele gear, the effect on his skiing ability is the same - it's the pack that will determine if he stands or falls. As said, I always ski both tele and downhill in tele bindings, depending on my mood and the terrain. If you don't agree with what i've just said, please demonstrate why. If you can't counter it, i'm still interested to hear why he won't enjoy it ("Because he's not used to the gear" isn't an argument, how you use the gear is what will make it fun or not)

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