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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

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Author
Rings on Return of the Toe Cutter Gang - Mt York
One Day Hero
7/08/2012
6:06:37 PM
So maybe you can explain why all the aspiring ascentionists who need to do this climb in a non-lifethreatening state couldn't have just toproped it? Is there any difference between toproping and clipping rings?

hangdog
7/08/2012
6:43:59 PM
On 7/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:

>Am I close?
Not even near. Unlike yourself i am under no illusion as to where i stand in the overall scheme of things. Still haven't ticked big numbers,its not why i climb (luckily because i was never going to be good at it). Your comments about me say more about you than me.

>
>No, having the bolts there changes things. We've been through this, much
>better for the pussies to toprope than the hardmen skip bolts. Notice how
>everyone else responding to you is also saying the same thing?

The only thing the bolts do is allow others to climb these routes. What bothers you so much about this? The fear that even with the extra pro you will get shut down.


>This is a bit of a tangent, but it kinda shows how little you know about
>climbing. For vertical routes dependant on edging small, positive holds,
>stiff shoes make it grades easier. Boreal rubber was not the best, but
>Aces or Ballets resoled with 5.10 rubber were about as good as it ever
>got for edging. (notice how Tommy Caldwell's expensive new signature shoe
>looks more or less the same as a hightop from the 80's?). Anyway, none
>of this is news to the good climbers I know. Everyone smart has worked
>out that shoes have generally gotten better for steep stuff but worse for
>vertical edging and slabs.

So i shall hear about your ascent of WB routes in an old pair of high tops now. Or will you pull on a modern pair of edging shoes? Five Ten make a good one,didnt sell well here. i guess everyone was still using their old aces for the hard walls.

>Yeah, I bet you didn't get a whole lot of respect from the hardmen back
>then. Must be disappointing to outlast them, only to find that your attempts
>to pussify climbing are still not welcome.

Dont reflect your own angst onto me. I never got into climbing to gain respect from hardmen. Does it still upset you that you never got the respect you so obviously deserved?
>
>btw, I don't need to drive up to chop your faggy retrobolts, sounds like
>the locals will see to it in short order.

You have gone off half kocked on this one. Never bolted of chopped any of these or any other routes. All i did was voice an opinion on the bolting of routes. So do what you want . As the mouthpiece of the disenfranchised i am sure you have plenty of help.

Macciza
Online Now
7/08/2012
7:23:35 PM
On 7/08/2012 dangermouth wrote:
>Ok. Ruins the line for .....who?
Everybody - as I said earlier, but in particular ME!
And as i said earlier yes I have played on it and looked at it recently.
I can't see it an ankle-breaker with that many rings so close together.
Mind you any climb can break ankles so that is no measure really.
Should the Obituary be 'safety-ised' due to it's record . . .
If the bolts need replacing - I'm not sure they do - then it should be 'same-place & like for like' ie Hangerless (glue-in now) bolts if thats what was there.. . .

E. Wells
7/08/2012
7:51:20 PM
yeah , well theres still two beside it. If you top rope the sh%t out of something, brush it, tick the holds and prehang your draws what the hell is the difference between a carrot and a U or ring. I actually agree about the 'bolts where they were' thing, I am just worked up because despite all the crap talk and woz gunna b.s no-one touched it, infact no-ones touched it besides two of ........'s mates since it was rebolted. A friend and I went and did next to nothing on friday and someone put rings in that too , and if a mossy hold snaps near the anchor you probably hit the ground. Just like top roping. whats the difference eh? Bah....

IdratherbeclimbingM9
7/08/2012
8:27:17 PM
On 7/08/2012 dangermouth wrote:
>yeah , well theres still two beside it. If you top rope the sh%t out of
>something, brush it, tick the holds and prehang your draws what the hell
>is the difference between a carrot and a U or ring. I actually agree about
>the 'bolts where they were' thing, I am just worked up because despite
>all the crap talk and woz gunna b.s no-one touched it, infact no-ones touched
>it besides two of ........'s mates since it was rebolted. A friend and
>I went and did next to nothing on friday and someone put rings in that
>too , and if a mossy hold snaps near the anchor you probably hit the ground.
>Just like top roping. whats the difference eh? Bah....
>


The difference is respect.


Macciza
Online Now
7/08/2012
8:43:00 PM
On 7/08/2012 dangermouth wrote:

Yeah and if this is allowed to stand how long will the others last?

Not everyone would do it the way you say with tickmarks and pre-hung draws.
Ever thought that maybe it is the fact that few people do it that makes it special . .

Age of Reason was put up on lead as it was, without bolts, thats the climb.

And as I said I had been looking at it not so long ago, just before this shit happened.

And it would be really good if ........ could own up, state their case and cop the flak.
Why haven't they come forward - I believe they know what they have done is dodgy . . .

IdratherbeclimbingM9
7/08/2012
8:47:02 PM
On 7/08/2012 hangdog wrote:
>I will say it again.
>If you want to be bold don't clip the new bolts. Its really simple.
>Or if you want a modern experience clip them. Or top rope if you want.
>Its up to you.

Yes. I would like that choice, not the modern experience of safety that has been imposed on us.


>All this noise about modernising or rebolting routes. Some of these routes
>are very bold and full credit to the first ascentionists but rebolting
>them doesn't change the actual route just the protectability of it and
>the headspace. If you get off on scaring yourself shitless then solo it.

You really don't get it.
By changing the protectability you change the entire experience of challenging oneself in an environment of consequence.

Boldness has it's own value.
This starts before one even leaves the ground, as Macciza and ODH have said/alluded to.
By retroing this route it has been desecrated.
>
>It is strange to me that some climbers complain about replacing carrot
>bolts with rings (relocating or adding extra protection ) Lament the good
>old bold days but happily use a lightweight rope and state of the art shoes.
>If you really miss the full experience then grab a pair of fires or whatever
>WB was wearing and then do it using the original protection points. It
>seems to me that climbers pick and choose what they miss about the old
>bold days.

No.
Some of us still admire a bold lead, and desire historical time honoured test pieces to measure ourselves against.

& re ODH comment;
>>No, having the bolts there changes things. We've been through this, much
>>better for the pussies to toprope than the hardmen skip bolts. Notice how
>>everyone else responding to you is also saying the same thing?

you wrote;
>The only thing the bolts do is allow others to climb these routes. What bothers you so >much about this? The fear that even with the extra pro you will get shut down.

I am happy to be shut down from time to time.
I don't mind if others climb the routes that I can't, provided they respect the original style and attempt to do it in at least that degree of difficulty (this includes boldness), or preferably even better style!
Retroing a route dumbs it down the same as chipping it does, so that someone can do their gym style in the outdoors...
I am bothered to the extent that I will happily post a crow bar to a local to have them chopped!

I am sorry to have to say this hangdog, but your boldness ethic would receive equal lack of sympathy if you transposed it to most climbs at places like Mt Buffalo, where historical ascents have been bold by comparison to your 'modern' view.





E. Wells
7/08/2012
8:51:06 PM
It was me and Im just packing the boot now to go and bolt Leiben. Peace. Respect.
spicelab
7/08/2012
9:07:18 PM
On 7/08/2012 dangermouth wrote:
>It was me and Im just packing the boot now to go and bolt Leiben. Peace.
>Respect.
>

Good for you dangermouth.

Standing up for the disenfranchised 99.9%

Macciza
Online Now
7/08/2012
9:08:59 PM
On 7/08/2012 dangermouth wrote:
>It was me . . .
Oh, I didn't know you were M . . . .


hangdog
7/08/2012
9:38:35 PM
On 7/08/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>Yes. I would like that choice, not the modern experience of safety that
>has been imposed on us.

Where is the imposition? If you want to do with the original protection then clip those ones. No one forces anyone to clip them. So dont. (Backwards forwards the arguement goes)

>
>You really don't get it.
>By changing the protectability you change the entire experience of challenging
>oneself in an environment of consequence.

I do get it. My original post was in reference to a route that was retro bolted with bolts added (i think ??) My comment referred to those routes not every route. You have an element of control over the consequence. Clip the original feel good having done in a style similiar to the original. Everybody knows that the route was originally done less equipped. If you clip them all then you are not doing it in its original bold style.
>
>Boldness has it's own value.
>This starts before one even leaves the ground, as Macciza and ODH have
>said/alluded to.
>By retroing this route it has been desecrated.

Maybe (thinking aloud now) and in reference to the Echo Wall routes probably yes. I think the two routes are not the same. Mt York vs Echo Wall.

>No.
>Some of us still admire a bold lead, and desire historical time honoured
>test pieces to measure ourselves against.

Me too. I am not sure how a simple comment about re-equipping some route at Mt York got to this, but hey its chockstone. I watched WB taking whippers off during the first ascent of the route at echo point. Scary stuff and impressive.
>
>
>I am sorry to have to say this hangdog, but your boldness ethic would
>receive equal lack of sympathy if you transposed it to most climbs at places
>like Mt Buffalo, where historical ascents have been bold by comparison
>to your 'modern' view.

Ok ok i never wanted to wear the mantle of supporter of the re equipping of old scary death lead routes. Bolt or chop do what you will!!
Let me know when anyone supporting leaving these bold routes bold actually climbs them. I would like to see it.
Too tired to argue anymore got to plan a months climbing in Austria and Italy.
Maybe some long unprotected classic routes complete with original pro.




>
>
>
>
>
dhunchak
7/08/2012
10:00:37 PM
There's a great scene in Crackaholic where some dude describes the first time he sees Minaret (E8) and says to himself "shit, will I ever be able to climb this route". Years of training and climbing later he does it, and I bet it's one of the best moments of his life. I think one thing that I don't see being mentioned in these debates is what the bolters are taking away from the climbing community by lowing the commitment level of routes. If five people climb a bold route in 30 years, but have an amazing experience on it, is that a worse outcome than if 1000 people climb it, but have an average experience? Having bold routes at all grades is very important motivator for some people (like myself), who will stay up at night dreaming about the day they'll be fit enough to find themselves standing at the base with a rope coiled at their feet. It's not just ego involved in establishing a bold route - as some say "a testament to themselves and how great they are" - I see bold routes as an invitation to join the first ascentionist at their level. And when we create pathways for people to climb at a certain standard with minimal effort by taking shortcuts, we enable them to cheat themselves out of one of the greatest experiences available to us - the realisation of a dream previously thought out of reach. Most of us will take the easy road if it is available, just like it's dangerous to have piles of cocaine lying around the house (you'll use it), it's dangerous to have too much protection littered around the cliffs - we'll have a bit of fun, but we won't go out and do other things which would likely be more rewarding. Cheers.
One Day Hero
7/08/2012
10:14:03 PM
On 7/08/2012 hangdog wrote:
>The only thing the bolts do is allow others to climb these routes. What
>bothers you so much about this? The fear that even with the extra pro you
>will get shut down.

Which bit of "toprope" don't you understand? Or does toproping not count as climbing the thing? But leading it with all the pussy retro's does count?
>

>So i shall hear about your ascent of WB routes in an old pair of high
>tops now. Or will you pull on a modern pair of edging shoes? Five Ten make
>a good one,didnt sell well here.

The Galileo, I have a pair, not as good as Aces.....but you won't believe me because you're fully into the marketing bullshit which the shoe companies pump out. Australian climbers don't buy them because australian climbers don't climb slabs and thin edging routes. Doesn't matter what shoes you wear on most of the blueys sport routes, just standing on jugs.
>
>I never got into climbing to gain
>respect from hardmen.

That's fortunate
>
>So do what you want .

Sweet, I want to chop some bolts on established sport routes if there's natural pro available. Retro mixed routes, I reckon there's not enough of these getting about.

Macciza
Online Now
7/08/2012
11:59:35 PM
On 7/08/2012 hangdog wrote:
> Where is the imposition? If you want to do with the original protection
>then clip those ones. No one forces anyone to clip them. So dont. (Backwards
>forwards the arguement goes)

Thats because they are very different propositions - even more so with a bold route.
Choosing not to clip something is completely different to not having something to clip.
The mental factors are completely different between the two situations - no comparison.

Choosing to skip unnecessary clips or skipping possible gear placements is fun.
Climbing in clear and present danger without physical protection is very different fun.
Having to avoid protection/embrace exposure based on ethical decisions is often hard and not fun.

Really having them there and not using them actually makes it different/harder mental challenge.
The old way all I had to do was come up with a way that was ethically acceptable to me, without altering the route.
Then I simply had to gather the resolve to actually do it - knowing full well the situation and accepting it as it would be.

Now it is a very different story - I don't think it will be acceptable for me to use them if they are there when I try it.
That present a challenge before I even get on the route now - to not bring them into the equation at all.
Even if they are not there (and particularly if I had removed them) - I'll have to actively ignore they were there . . .
I'd prefer to simply have to deal with there not being anything at all - it is easier to deal with and safer for bold climbing . . .
Having a ring there could lead to a dangerous situation of indecision, hesitation, primal fear etc loss of focus, clarity & commitment etc

Or that s a quick ( hopefully honest) version of some of the ways that I personally find it at times when i am in these sorts of situations.
And I have at times sought out and been in these situations so I at least I am offering a qualified opinion on the matter.
Unless you have seriously contemplated doing the route or preferably tried it in it's original form - I don't think you understand.

So basically unless you are into bold shit and your hands don't go sweaty at the thought of it you really have no valid opinion on this issue.

hangdog
8/08/2012
12:33:51 AM
On 7/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 7/08/2012 hangdog wrote:



>The Galileo, I have a pair, not as good as Aces.....but you won't believe
>me because you're fully into the marketing bullshit which the shoe companies
>pump out. Australian climbers don't buy them because australian climbers
>don't climb slabs and thin edging routes. Doesn't matter what shoes you
>wear on most of the blueys sport routes, just standing on jugs.

nope the newton. (on my second pair) great edging shoe takes a while to break in but when it is it shits all over the aces (had a pair). never read the marketing i was given a sample pair


>Sweet, I want to chop some bolts on established sport routes if there's
>natural pro available.

Sure why not. Bolts next to natural pro placements shit me

Retro mixed routes, I reckon there's not enough
>of these getting about.

stop talking about it and do it.
my guess is you wont (no balls)
really have to finish this one here its 12.30 in the morning and the only tools on here are odh and me. sad bastards!!
simey
8/08/2012
9:45:44 AM
On 7/08/2012 dhunchak wrote:
>Having bold routes at all grades is very important motivator for some people (like myself), who will stay up at night dreaming about the day they'll be fit enough to find themselves standing at the base with a rope coiled at their feet. It's not just ego involved in establishing a bold route - as some say "a testament to themselves and how great they are" - I see bold routes as an invitation to join the first ascentionist at their level.

Firstly we don't need too many bold routes in the easier grades. There aren't that many quality easy routes around, so advocating death leads on grade 10 terrain seems pretty silly. Who aspires to lead bold grade 10s and 12s (apart from places like the Warrumbungles)?

Climbs have a first ascent history which should be acknowledged, but they also have a repeat ascent history which should be given due respect too.

The only times that the first ascenionist should really command full respect is when they have gone ground-up to establish a new route. I reckon as soon as you opt to rap-inspect a line you have started taking the soft option. If you choose to bolt a line in a bold way after pre-inspecting all the climbing and working out what placements go where, you are basically being lazy or an egotistical wanker. Personally I don't think you can claim complete ownership of the line given that you have already forfeited your opportunity to meet the cliff head-on by opting for abseil pre-inspection. In fact I hate it when great lines have been hijacked in this way. And I would argue that Warwick Baird's routes on Echo Point are a case in point.

But once a route is established (in whatever fashion), the ensuing years should determine whether it stands or falls. I reckon that in many instances the first repeat ascent of a line can be just as significant as the first ascent depending on the circumstances.

A route certainly doesn't need to receive a lot of ascents to be considered worthwhile. But it should be on climber's radars - either you aspire to climb it, or you accept the fact that it is out of your league. Whether you reckon particular routes are out of your league because the bolting sounds like it was done in a pain in the arse fashion is another matter (ie Echo Point routes).

Most of the retro-bolting I have done is on routes that climbers have completely forgotten about. They simply don't get climbed and climbers don't aspire to climb them. I am well aware of the debate you create if you start retro-bolting well-known routes.

Because I am not that familiar with Return of the Toe Cutter Gang and it's first ascent history, it's repeat ascent history, it's overall quality and how it is viewed by the general climbing community, means I can't comment specifically, although Macca's interest in the climb as it stood certainly means it was on his radar and that should be given due consideration.


davidn
8/08/2012
10:31:04 AM
Simey - what if you have to rap it to clean it? That said, I pretty much agree with your underlying sentiment, though I think even ground up bolting done in a dangerous way is pretty lazy or egotistical.

'Bold' bolted routes has always seemed like a weird idea, like some have said more a testament to ego than sense. If you want to climb 8 metres at your limit with a chance of broken ankles or head, go bouldering? If you don't want to bolt the first 8 metres of a trad line because it doesn't take gear, that's a different thing again (ala grit).

Having X bolts in a climb but choosing to make the lower part of a route dicey is just ... slightly psychotic, to be honest. Like admitting you need the poop stick to play pool but breaking it in half so people don't think you're so soft that you need to use the whole thing.

However, the 'just don't clip em' argument also doesn't wash. Even a free soloist on a sport route has bolt hangers to grab, which changes the experience compared to naked rock.
kieranl
8/08/2012
10:40:59 AM
On 8/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>Simey - what if you have to rap it to clean it?
You could take Jerry Moffatt's approach to repeating Footless Crow in the UK back in the early 80s. It needed cleaning so to preserve the onsight he got a friend to clean it. Granted that some people might have trouble finding a friend, let alone one willing to clean a route for them.

Climboholic
8/08/2012
11:17:20 AM
Hangdog: How can you not see how wrong you are? Skipping bolts has never been a sufficient excuse to retro-bolt, no matter how many times it is repeated by naive wannabes trying to leave their mark. I hope as someone with such a poor understanding of climbing ethics, you don't own a drill.

*Retro-edit*
Admit defeat instead of claiming you're going "climbing in Austria" for 2 weeks and conveniently exiting stage left.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/08/2012
12:06:35 PM
On 7/08/2012 hangdog wrote:
> Where is the imposition? If you want to do with the original protection
>then clip those ones. No one forces anyone to clip them. So dont. (Backwards
>forwards the arguement goes)
& Macciza replied;
>Thats because they are very different propositions - even more so with
>a bold route.
>Choosing not to clip something is completely different to not having something
>to clip.
>The mental factors are completely different between the two situations
>- no comparison.
>
>Choosing to skip unnecessary clips or skipping possible gear placements
>is fun.
>Climbing in clear and present danger without physical protection is very
>different fun.
>Having to avoid protection/embrace exposure based on ethical decisions
>is often hard and not fun.
>
>Really having them there and not using them actually makes it different/harder
>mental challenge.
>The old way all I had to do was come up with a way that was ethically
>acceptable to me, without altering the route.
>Then I simply had to gather the resolve to actually do it - knowing full
>well the situation and accepting it as it would be.
>
>Now it is a very different story - I don't think it will be acceptable
>for me to use them if they are there when I try it.
>That present a challenge before I even get on the route now - to not bring
>them into the equation at all.
>Even if they are not there (and particularly if I had removed them) -
>I'll have to actively ignore they were there . . .
>I'd prefer to simply have to deal with there not being anything at all
>- it is easier to deal with and safer for bold climbing . . .
>Having a ring there could lead to a dangerous situation of indecision,
>hesitation, primal fear etc loss of focus, clarity & commitment etc
>
>Or that s a quick ( hopefully honest) version of some of the ways that
>I personally find it at times when i am in these sorts of situations.
>And I have at times sought out and been in these situations so I at least
>I am offering a qualified opinion on the matter.
>Unless you have seriously contemplated doing the route or preferably tried
>it in it's original form - I don't think you understand.
>
>So basically unless you are into bold shit and your hands don't go sweaty
>at the thought of it you really have no valid opinion on this issue.
>

You have encapsulated my thoughts on the matter very well Macciza.







On 8/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>Simey - what if you have to rap it to clean it? That said, I pretty much
>agree with your underlying sentiment, though I think even ground up bolting
>done in a dangerous way is pretty lazy or egotistical.

I'll bite, why do you think this?

I don't doubt some of it could be regarded as dangerous in hindsight due maybe better locations could be found later, but that is one of the constraints of doing things ground up.
In the twisted game that climbers play, ground up bolting is a more pure form of bolting! ;-)
Heh, heh, heh.
>
>'Bold' bolted routes has always seemed like a weird idea, like some have
>said more a testament to ego than sense. If you want to climb 8 metres
>at your limit with a chance of broken ankles or head, go bouldering? If
>you don't want to bolt the first 8 metres of a trad line because it doesn't
>take gear, that's a different thing again (ala grit).
>
>Having X bolts in a climb but choosing to make the lower part of a route
>dicey is just ... slightly psychotic, to be honest. Like admitting you
>need the poop stick to play pool but breaking it in half so people don't
>think you're so soft that you need to use the whole thing.

I wonder if Ground up first ascentionists thought of that when they were doing the upper pitches of climbs in the Warrumbungles, Dolomites, El capitan, etc?

>
>However, the 'just don't clip em' argument also doesn't wash. Even a
>free soloist on a sport route has bolt hangers to grab, which changes the
>experience compared to naked rock.

Agreed.

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