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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

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Author
Rings on Return of the Toe Cutter Gang - Mt York

Macciza
9/08/2012
11:32:20 PM
Stugang
I hear where you are coming from and it is a difficult one to comment on - you did try to find out if it was a route, it wasn't recorded, so honest mistake etc.
But it was either an existing or something that some one had tried or something, or else why was the bolt there. Would you have tried it the way you did if the bolt was not there? Would you have gone ground up ? If you bailed would you have rapped in to suss it out? etc etc etc I guess we will never know because the bolt was there. I know a bolt on a face can be inviting, and also that blank faces can seem intimidating.
I agree that you did it in fine style; up to the point where you used a sign-post bolt to indicate where the route goes, not sure about that bit.

Simey makes some good points but I'm not sure he really nails it. Times have moved on - climbs attempted are harder, and less obvious, more dangerous.
Sometimes on hard/bold it is basically 'saner' to rap and have a quick look at something to make sure you do at least stand a chance and its not suicidal.
I wrote a whole lot more to try to explain but it all gets too wordy and convoluted - making decisions about doing bold climbs can be a real mind-fcuk sometimes.
I have sometimes spent ages/years working myself out in order to approach certain climbs - just making the decision to seriously consider doing it can be bloody hard . . .

Macciza
9/08/2012
11:44:52 PM
On 9/08/2012 dalai wrote:
>On 9/08/2012 nmonteith wrote:

>>It certainly WAS NOT a Safer Cliffs initiative.
>
>Didn't expect it to be - especially as you have already posted against
>the retro - just wanted to make it clear given safer cliffs was brought
>into the topic with the above post.

Sorry I just posted that stuff to try to show that these ethics are established.
That people should realise that this action is unacceptable for those reasons.
And I guess to try and draw a comment from Safer Cliff representatives.

Perhaps there should be a Safer Cliffs moderator who can point out these sorts of things when bogus situations like this develop.
Don't know if it would help much , but at least a considered 'official' opinion might inform the less educated . . .

stugang
10/08/2012
1:15:58 AM
On 9/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>Hey Stu, I dug out the shitty little guide and found your route, "Unnamed
>25, 1 bolt at 8m", guidebook really sells it!
>
>Did Warwick really drive down from Sydney for a weekend just to sort you
>out? That's fuching fanastic! No wonder you were so keen to send his rap
>route project, what a sweet "fuch you" that would've been.
>
>Also, the retrobolted route in question was put up by Ralph, not Baird
>so your little story is completely irrelevant.

Yes I am aware it woz done by ralph. Wazza however has been mentioned a few times.

"Ralph has pimples" - classic graffiti quote from inside the Mt York Picnic shelter circa 1987.
Nick Clow
10/08/2012
8:41:18 AM
Ok, I can't help myself again.

Last year I onsighted a route at Frog called Separator 23. It's the arete R of Elastic RURP. It's a trad climb with small gear in a diagonal low down, but then the arete is blank until what looks like only the possibility of placing RPs. By that point you are on a ground fall. I have utmost respect for the FAist (who put up the route onsight or ground up) and for the manner in which it had been put up.

I mention this, not to wave my c0ck, but to illustrate that the style of the First Ascent provides some context (for me at least) as to how routes are repeated.

The Rage this Season is not Separator. It's not The Bachar-Yerian, Tjuringa, Southern Belle or Flange Desire.

It's not Toads either. If the FAist had made the choice to leave a bold route that went 100% on gear, then I think that would be understandable and worthy of respect.

That is not the case here, as the FAist placed 2 bolts on the route and had top-roped it prior to leading it. I think the logic articulated by Simey is very relevant here.

> Sometimes on hard/bold it is basically 'saner' to rap and have a quick look at something to make sure you do at least stand a chance and its not suicidal.

You now seem to be talking about rap inspection and (I think) you have previously talked about having toproped The Rage this Season? Well sure, these are ways of bringing the challenge down to your level.

Let me say that if you chop the bolts on The Rage this Season (a climb which, in its current state, can be reasonably attempted onsight or ground-up) and then go on to top-rope it prior to leading it, then (in the context of this climb and what has gone on) I think you are actually on extremely questionable ethical ground.

There would be nothing particularly difficult about leading this route as it was originally equipped (with 2 bolts and gear) after top-rope practice. That might actually be construed as a 'lesser' style of ascent than leading it ground up on the 4 new bolts and gear. Added to which, the top-rope practice would serve to wear the holds.

If you take the step of chopping the present bolts, then I think the onus is on you to:
1) Lead the climb ground-up as it was originally equipped (with the 2 bolts and gear); or
2) If you top-rope it, dispense with any bolts and make it a 100% trad lead.






anthonycuskelly
10/08/2012
9:58:30 AM
Nick, the difference here is that if Macca headpoints it, then it is ethically better as it doesn't affect the experience of anyone else. Whether or not that's a lesser style of ascent is pretty much irrelevant.

davidn
10/08/2012
10:06:17 AM
Pretty much irrelevant? What happened to 'we should all aspire to climb in the best style possible'?

As to whether a 4 bolt ground-up ascent is better style than a 2 bolt top-rope-the-buggery-out-of-it ascent... I'll leave it to others to make a definitive ruling, but personally I'm inclined to say the former.
One Day Hero
10/08/2012
10:28:28 AM
On 10/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>Pretty much irrelevant? What happened to 'we should all aspire to climb in the best style possible'?
>
>As to whether a 4 bolt ground-up ascent is better style than a 2 bolt
>top-rope-the-buggery-out-of-it ascent...

Dude, just check the ASX, they have the current exchange rate listed.

Nick, wow.......just, wow! You onsighted a 23 at Frog? A real classic by the sound of it too. So how come, if you're such a hard hitter, onsighting 23 in "a groundfall situation", you can't even dog a retrobolted Blueys 23 into submission?
anthonycuskelly
10/08/2012
10:47:11 AM
Davidn, I'd agree that we should all aspire to climb in the best style possible... while minimising the affect on someone else's experience.

I think the ethics of how you affect someone else's experience are the overriding factor, and adding extra bolts affects how someone else can do it.
dalai
10/08/2012
10:50:44 AM
On 10/08/2012 Nick Clow wrote:
>There would be nothing particularly difficult about leading this route
>as it was originally equipped (with 2 bolts and gear) after top-rope practice.
>That might actually be construed as a 'lesser' style of ascent than leading
>it ground up on the 4 new bolts and gear. Added to which, the top-rope
>practice would serve to wear the holds.

If you are concerned about holds wearing, I bet the added bolts will do more damage by attracting more people to the route!

Compared to the few TR attempts prior to one of the infrequent headpoint ascents...

Macciza
10/08/2012
10:56:10 AM
Dick
Separator is listed as nothing special, Separator Direct has the danger warning - It sounds like you climbed the easy version, so what's your point, how would you feel if the Direct had some bolts added? . . .

I wasn't 'waving' either - I was illustrating that I engage is this style of climbing - if that's all you can offer from your side, then really . . . why bother . . .. . .
I think people who do not engage in this style of climbing are basically talking crap - they have no personal understanding of the real issues involved . .
If you have not really 'headpointed' a route, or climbed any recognised bold/dangerous routes, then please keep your imaginations to your self . . .
If you think the danger mysteriously disappears because of those tactics, then you really don't have a clue . . .

So did you decide it would be 'nothing particularly difficult' AFTER you dogged it on the shiny retro's or before?
Are you now going to go back and climb it properly with out using the retros, even if you get sketchy?
The climb, in it's previous state, could be reasonably attempted onsight; the new rungs were not needed previously.

Dogging groundup on new retro-rungs, a 'better' style than placing gear in the placements next to the retros? ( even if inspected or TR'd) are you serious?
The 'better style ' of ascent would be to climb it (in its previous state) ground up placing gear and using the original bolts . . . without pre-inspection . ..
ADDING fixed protection to a climb which has been climbed without them is CLEARLY a lesser approach . . .
And the retro-rungs will do more to wear the holds then if it had been left well enough alone!

I do not think you are in any position to be placing any particular requirements on how I may or may not attempt the climb in it's original state . . .
uwhp510
Online Now
10/08/2012
10:56:24 AM
On 9/08/2012 Nick Clow wrote:
>It's a fragile climb with some very thin edges, so, unfortunately (as someone
>has said previously), with wear, this climb could rapidly become a 26.
>Please respect and minimise wear.

Phew, lucky its been being retro-ed then! Those nice, shiny, and above all else, RESPECTFUL ring bolts should keep the masses away.
One Day Hero
10/08/2012
10:58:40 AM
On 10/08/2012 Nick Clow wrote:
>
>That might actually be construed as a 'lesser' style of ascent than leading
>it ground up on the 4 new bolts and gear.

As I said to Simey, taken in isolation, your argument seems reasonable. It sounds like you're performing a logical, rational analysis of routes as you come to them, and doing what's best in each case. Except........it always results in adding bolts!

Here's a challenge Nick. Go and find a ringbolted sport route in the Blueys, apply your rational analysis, and chop some bolts out of it. Either change it from 'clip and lower' to top belay, or make it into a mixed route, or just make it a bit more run out. One route! Surely a balanced, rational guy like you can find one route amongst the thousands of sport climbs which would be "ethically better" with less bolts.............you don't have any trouble finding climbs which apparently need to go in the other direction.

Climboholic
10/08/2012
11:02:19 AM
Holy snapping ducksh1t! Nearly 200 posts in a week! That's got to be some sort of record.

M9: As the official chockstone statistician, can you confirm this???
anthonycuskelly
10/08/2012
11:04:23 AM
Macca, minor query: How do you define "this style of climbing"? If I toprope a (for me) hard route before attempting it on lead, because it's harder than anything I've done on lead lately and there's potential for a longer-than-normal fall, then do I count? Even if it's not actually bold by most people's standards? Who's deciding whose opinions count on this?
One Day Hero
10/08/2012
11:38:02 AM
On 10/08/2012 stugang wrote:
>"Ralph has pimples" - classic graffiti quote from inside the Mt York Picnic
>shelter circa 1987.

One of the funniest ones I ever saw was in a public dunny in some shithole little South Australian town. It said "Woman pussy better!".................no big deal, till you start to wonder "better than which other variety? and, how much research did this genius do?"
Nick Clow
10/08/2012
11:39:43 AM
> Here's a challenge Nick. Go and find a ringbolted sport route in the Blueys, apply your rational analysis, and chop some bolts out of it. Either change it from 'clip and lower' to top belay, or make it into a mixed route, or just make it a bit more run out. One route! Surely a balanced, rational guy like you can find one route amongst the thousands of sport climbs which would be "ethically better" with less bolts.............you don't have any trouble finding climbs which apparently need to go in the other direction.

As you have managed to put your acute personality disorder aside for one brief second and ask a question relevant to the discussion, I will answer that, in my view, there are innumerable climbs in the mountains which would be 'better' with fewer bolts and/or with carrots instead of rings. Very quickly off the top of my head:

* Building a Better Mousetrap is a classic example. 11 bolts in 15 metres. What a piece of cr@p. Ironic that it shares the same start and is right next to Comfortably Numb - a fine climb.

* Language of Desire was a better climb before it was retroed, the little bit of commitment at the start added to the route.

* Let's Nail God used to be great, but now has about 5 bolts too many.

* Same with Shakes and Flakes.

* Cheap Dive was a great climb on its original bolts

* On Edge was a better climb on carrots and gear. I am amazed that Macciza’s ‘pride’ allows him to climb this without chopping it

* Barbarossa at Cosmic

* Junction City at Cosmic

* Exhibition Wall has about 6 bolts too many.... etc, etc, etc, etc, etc
Nick Clow
10/08/2012
11:53:23 AM
And, by the way, ODH, where I come from you'd be said to have a big mouth.

Can you back it up?

I bet you $1,000 that you cannot onsight The Rage this Season in its current form.

Just let me know when you are going for it, I'll be there. Bring your cash.
simey
10/08/2012
11:53:52 AM
Seriously worthwhile debate. And I appreciate Macciza's passionate responses. I reckon these sort of debates about retro-bolting need to be applied route by route due to the individuality of the routes, their location, their history and their standing within the climbing community.

At the end of the day I am inclined to side with Macciza even though I think the route sounds flawed. Dalai gave a good wrap-up about his thoughts, but I think Stugang summed it most eloquently...

On 9/08/2012 stugang wrote:
>I am on the side of thinking (or at least I think I think that) that these bolts on Exhibition wall are pointless, stupid and an insult to all the egotistical twats that have come before us.
>PS. if you are too dumb to interpret the last sentence "I think the bolts on ExWall should be removed"....

simey
10/08/2012
12:06:39 PM
BTW I reckon Nick's list of routes that could be improved by the removal of some bolts would see a lot of climbers nodding in agreement.
One Day Hero
10/08/2012
12:20:49 PM
On 10/08/2012 Nick Clow wrote:
>And, by the way, ODH, where I come from you'd be said to have a big mouth.
>
Yes, they say that where I come from too, what a funny coincidence

>I bet you $1,000 that you cannot onsight The Rage this Season in its current
>form.
>
Gee, that sounds like a fair bet. You're offering me the opportunity to attempt to onsight a route which you've been unable to do, despite substantial dogging............and at the bargain odds of 1:1?

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There are 383 messages in this topic.

 

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