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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 77
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
VIC Arapiles Mitre Rock (General) South Mitre [ Arapiles Guide | Arapiles Images ] 

Author
Rap bolts chopped above Serpent
gfdonc
Online Now
18/04/2012
12:33:01 PM
Ahh, I thought it was about time for a bolting debate. I've never done Serpent (hardly ever bothered to go out to Mitre) and have only got this to add.

On 17/04/2012 kieranl wrote:
>No I want the chain back to return to the person who donated it. Not returning
>it is theft pure and simple.

While it would be good for someone to return the goods, I disagree on the principle here.
Installing and leaving something (a fixed anchor) on a cliff puts it in the public domain as far as I'm concerned - and I am speaking as a person who has put his one $ into installing fixed anchors as you're aware.

Anything I'm prepared to leave behind is no longer 'owned' by me as I've abandoned it for the use of all climbers. I wouldn't, for example, rock up and reclaim it at some later date (as 'mine') just because I'd thought of a better use for that 8mm stainless chain.

In the case in point, calling it vandalism rather than theft is perhaps closer to the mark.
An esoteric point perhaps but a recognition that these anchors aren't 'owned' by anyone in particular and are there for the benefit of everyone.

nmonteith
18/04/2012
12:46:30 PM
A professionally manufactured anchor could easily cost upwards of $40. Not returning something of this value seems like stealing to me. Post it back anonymously or leave it on the front door step if you are that chicken shit you can't man up to your chopping actions.

Miguel75
18/04/2012
12:56:22 PM
On 18/04/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>...if you are that chicken shit you can't man up to your chopping actions.

I tend to agree with gfdonc about the chain, and really really agree with Neil. If you're up to chopping bolts, cowboy up and lay claim to your actions.

Neil
18/04/2012
12:58:03 PM

Talking about enviro damage and bolting for convenience... what do people think about the bolt farms left above eskimo nell and on bluff major etc from the slacklining anchors put up over Easter ?

There are 4 or more abandoned bolts and nuts at the top of eskimo nell. Those spoilt my experience waaay more than the odd extra rap anchor.

Organ Pipe
18/04/2012
1:13:36 PM
Wow cool pic!

(I substituted 'medium' for 'large' in the URL for a better look).
robertsonja
18/04/2012
1:38:32 PM
On 18/04/2012 Neil wrote:
>
>Talking about enviro damage and bolting for convenience... what do people
>think about the bolt farms left above eskimo nell and on bluff major etc
>from the slacklining anchors put up over Easter ?
>
>There are 4 or more abandoned bolts and nuts at the top of eskimo nell.
>Those spoilt my experience waaay more than the odd extra rap anchor.
>

Can you please explain this?

White Trash
18/04/2012
1:46:23 PM
On 18/04/2012 Miguel75 wrote:
>On 18/04/2012 nmonteith wrote:
>>...if you are that chicken shit you can't man up to your chopping actions.
>
>I tend to agree with gfdonc about the chain, and really really agree with
>Neil. If you're up to chopping bolts, cowboy up and lay claim to your actions.

like the natimuk bolting fairys do?

Miguel75
18/04/2012
2:01:40 PM
On 18/04/2012 White Trash wrote:
>like the natimuk bolting fairys do?

Already touched on that; both bolters and choppers should practice their craft in the cold hard light of day, so to speak.

Neil
18/04/2012
2:34:11 PM
On 18/04/2012 robertsonja wrote:
>On 18/04/2012 Neil wrote:
>>
>>Talking about enviro damage and bolting for convenience... what do people
>>think about the bolt farms left above eskimo nell and on bluff major
>etc
>>from the slacklining anchors put up over Easter ?
>>
>>There are 4 or more abandoned bolts and nuts at the top of eskimo nell.
>>Those spoilt my experience waaay more than the odd extra rap anchor.
>>
>
>Can you please explain this?

there were a bunch of slacklines at easter going to/from bluff major which used bolts as anchors. there was a set of bolts (4off?) installed above eskimo nell, another lot on the rock up and behind missing link and a 3rd lot looked to be on top of one of the boulders on bluff major.

the hangers were removed and the nut/bolts left sticking out of the rock. a freakin mess IMO.
One Day Hero
18/04/2012
2:42:24 PM
On 18/04/2012 robertsonja wrote:
>
>Can you please explain this?

A bunch of wierdo slacklining dudes decided to set up a 60m? line from the top of Bluff Major over to the top of Eskimo Nell. Slacklining apparently don't use natural gear, so they put lots of bolts in. I was walking past while they were bolting.

I asked one of them why he needed a chisel, the reply was "to knock off any lumps of rock around the bolt which might get in the way of the fixe" (I assume that fixe means bolt hanger). The next bit was really good though, this dude who had never climbed or placed a bolt in his life said "oh, don't worry though, we're doing it all, like, minimum impact"

But what was I going to say to these shankers? "We're allowed to put bolts where ever we like, but you guys aren't"?

rodw
18/04/2012
3:03:57 PM
Yeah but don't they have forum ODH you could spray at em from a far :)..stick with ya strengths I say.

The good Dr
18/04/2012
4:53:56 PM
One issue I noted above Eskimo Nell is that the Petzl rings there appeared to have been used by the slackliners. One had obviously been crossloaded where the ring was exhibiting some deformation and damage. Have yet to check the anchors above Missing Link. Will report back on this when further information comes to hand. This was raised in another thread.

ajfclark
18/04/2012
7:26:13 PM
On 17/04/2012 kieranl wrote:
>I hope they actually removed them properly without further damage to the rock.

Went for a climb up there this afternoon. There's two sleeves remaining in the cliff. Both stick out a few mm.

Eduardo Slabofvic
18/04/2012
7:26:49 PM
On 18/04/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
> dude who had never climbed or placed a bolt in his life

But no witch hunt or vilification of this dude, as he was putting bolts in, and thats O.K.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
18/04/2012
9:24:17 PM
On 18/04/2012 Eduardo Slabofvic. wrote:
>On 18/04/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>> dude who had never climbed or placed a bolt in his life
>
>But no witch hunt or vilification of this dude, as he was putting bolts
>in, and thats O.K.

I saw you edit that post ES.
:-P
~> It originally said that 'tying them down on a bed of three cornered Caltrop in full bloom is too good for them!' ...
Heh, heh, heh.
kieranl
18/04/2012
9:44:49 PM
On 18/04/2012 ajfclark wrote:
>On 17/04/2012 kieranl wrote:
>>I hope they actually removed them properly without further damage to
>the rock.
>
>Went for a climb up there this afternoon. There's two sleeves remaining
>in the cliff. Both stick out a few mm.
So only really wanted to stop people abseiling - couldn't be bothered cleaning up. What a tosser.
Egosan
19/04/2012
12:35:49 PM
I had a bumble up Mitre way today. See what all the noise is about. The anchor on Serpent was some kind of sleeve and bolt. Looks like the sleeves are undamaged. Could probably just screw in a new bolt. Hard to call it chopping.

Of more interest are the new rap rings on the ledge at the top of baptism. The are two new rap stations in five meters. Both within spitting distance of a mess of trad placements. Clearly convenience bolts for those too lazy to walk down the established summit track. It gets better. One of these new stations has already been stripped of its hangers too.
chalkischeap
19/04/2012
1:32:08 PM
………..slackliners have placed “bolt farms” on Bluff Major & Dunes buttress …………
…………..2 new rap stations within 5 metres above The Baptism ……………

Coming soon >>>>>>>> slackliners install a Via Ferrata up Missing Link (saves time, safer, reduces erosion)

Time to put together a small kitbag of tools & glue for visits to Araps. If anyone needs some hangers let me know.

Seriously guys, stop adding all these bolts.
Mike Bee
19/04/2012
2:00:32 PM
On 19/04/2012 chalkischeap wrote:
>
>Seriously guys, stop adding all these bolts.
>

I'm not a local, so naturally my opinion counts for squat in these discussions (or at least, that is the way it seems to work here normally), but chalkischeap has a point here.

If the climbing community is seen to be regularly adding convenience* bolts to the cliff, then we're going to have a hard time saying to other communities (in this case, slackliners) that they can't bolt.

Example:
Climber: Stop, you can't bolt there.
Slacker: Why not? You guys added some new bolts there and there.
Climber: Because there are natural placements there.
Slacker: There are natural placements instead of your anchors too.
Climber: Ours are there to prevent erosion.
Slacker: What about the one half way up The Serpent?

There is no sensible discussion that a climber could have to argue against slackliners adding their new bolts in. A trend of increasing the number of convenience anchors for climbers makes our case even weaker.

*the anchors at the top of Serpent are convenience anchors because they save climbers from having to do the "worthless" second pitch scramble.
Saying that they were there for erosion protection doesn't fly with me, I don't think.
- The descent gully down Mitre isn't exactly a barren wasteland or showing massive signs of erosion.
- Serpent isn't the only regularly done climb on that face (I know more people who have done The Bishop), so placing an anchor to prevent erosion that can only service a single climb doesn't make sense (unless you're going to put an anchor at the top of The Bishop too).

If you truly want to reduce erosion, put an anchor in that saves climbers from walking down from all climbs from the south side of the cliff. Put in some chains at an area that doesnt cross a popular climb, and that is safely accessible by people who have done any of the climbs in the area.
kieranl
19/04/2012
2:33:50 PM
On 19/04/2012 Mike Bee wrote:
>*the anchors at the top of Serpent are convenience anchors because they
>save climbers from having to do the "worthless" second pitch scramble.
>Saying that they were there for erosion protection doesn't fly with me,
>I don't think.
This gets right up my nose because I don't actually give a rats about the beginners having to walk down - does them no harm. If it wasn't for the erosion issue I wouldn't have been involved.
The rap anchor actually serves 2 very popular easy routes : Serpent and Nude Balloon Dance, both of which require a trog up the gully above. Serpent Direct finishes just a bit further up the gully but gets vastly less traffic. The vegetation in the gully from the top of Serpent takes hammering.
>- The descent gully down Mitre isn't exactly a barren wasteland or showing
>massive signs of erosion.
I'm tempted to ask which Mitre Rock you're talking about. Massive amounts of work have had to be done on trackwork in the gully in recent years. Two bolts in a rap anchor is going to reduce the pressure on these tracks from 2 very popular climbs. The trackwork doesn't mean that rap anchors won't help. Have a look at the track on the Hell's Bells side to see that repairs aren't forever - neither are bolts but well-placed bolts can last a very long time.
>- Serpent isn't the only regularly done climb on that face (I know more
>people who have done The Bishop), so placing an anchor to prevent erosion
>that can only service a single climb doesn't make sense (unless you're
>going to put an anchor at the top of The Bishop too).
>
>If you truly want to reduce erosion, put an anchor in that saves climbers
>from walking down from all climbs from the south side of the cliff. Put
>in some chains at an area that doesnt cross a popular climb, and that is
>safely accessible by people who have done any of the climbs in the area that is
>safely accessible by people who have done any of the climbs in the area.
1. Apart from the gridlock potential, south Mitre doesn't lend itself to a single descent point "that is safely accessible by people who have done any of the climbs in the area".The top of the cliff is very broken up and it's difficult to get to anchors on the edge in many places. And one of the big points of the Serpent anchors is to cut out the scramble up the gully and a universal rap point won't do it.
2. What popular climbs does the anchor point on Serpent cut across? Ancient History? Renunciation? Have you even heard of these climbs, let alone repeated them as I have? There's simply no truth in the claim that the rap crosses popular climbs so why make it/
It's interesting that people have now dropped the "no consultation" garbage. It was probably one of the most consulted rap anchors in the last 20 years. Oh, and Noddy, the first ascentionist of Serpent had no problems with using it.
The Serpent anchor was actually fairly carefully placed. You can have a party from Nude Ballooon Dance abseiling while another party is bringing up a second on Serpent (and vice-versa).

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