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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 6 of 7. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 138
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
All NSW (General) (General) (General)  

Author
new nowra guide badly produced

sbm
2/06/2011
9:01:02 PM
On 2/06/2011 widewetandslippery wrote:
>whats with the americanisms? dirtbag comes from US climer magazine slang
>from the 80s like sport and trad.

Fine, let's call them bludgers then.

Remember the debate about banning the word 'fag' on chocky? strikes me as the same debate.

rodw
2/06/2011
11:44:02 PM
Hardly more then just what constitutes a dirtbag?
plugngo
2/06/2011
11:51:24 PM
The debate is over the apathy that climbers feel about feel about having well trodden and accepted route names being changed without consultation or consideration.

I really feel it goes against the grain of a the "collective climbers ethics" do do such a thing. Sure, the name is trivial, but to admit the practice is essentially nihilism. It's no good.
Wendy
3/06/2011
7:46:36 AM
On 1/06/2011 GoUp! wrote:
>So if we extend your line of thought Wendy, does this mean that any routes
>with (or even potential) 'moral' or 'PC' infringments regarding the following
>requires changing?
>- religion;
>- homosexuals and other non-hetero-variants;
>- politics;
>- race, colour or creed;
>- social class;
>- drug use;
>- crime;
>- and any other route name that gets your knickers in a knot?
>
If they were making fairly distributed shots against all and sundry, it might be different. But, in case you hadn't noticed, it's largely misogynistic, racist and homophobic. With the odd jibe at incest and beastiality. This largely reflects attitudes and problems in our society that suck. I think it's quite reasonable to find them unreasonable.

I know Satan's been sussing out all available rock around his new abode and I'm sure he'll be up for developing a crag full of offensive names with me largely targeting the mainstream. Maybe when the dirt is thrown at the majority of people instead, it may be clearer why it is problematic.

>plugngo: The debate is over the apathy that climbers feel about feel about having well trodden and accepted route names being changed without consultation or consideration.

I don't know if there's been any consultation, but then, do any of us? Given Rod has a long history with that crag and guides to it, I would be surprised if he hadn't talked with any major players. And I'm sure he put a lot of consideration into whether to change them or not. In fact, probably with each edition.


grantoss
3/06/2011
9:56:17 AM
>Nowra is no longer a shithole hangout for some teenage male dirtbags with drills

>No, its a shithole hangout for some 30-somthing male dirtbags with drills.

Only people that reckon Nowra is a shithole are people who cant climb the routes there...

BundyBear
3/06/2011
10:59:48 AM
On 3/06/2011 grantoss wrote:

>No, its a shithole hangout for some 30-somthing male dirtbags with drills.
>
Ricky and Lord Hill must be atleast 50 !!
widewetandslippery
3/06/2011
12:21:44 PM
On 2/06/2011 sbm wrote:
>On 2/06/2011 widewetandslippery wrote:
>>whats with the americanisms? dirtbag comes from US climer magazine slang
>>from the 80s like sport and trad.
>
>Fine, let's call them bludgers then.
>
>Remember the debate about banning the word 'fag' on chocky? strikes me
>as the same debate.

Come and call me a bludger to my face.
alg
3/06/2011
5:04:01 PM
On 3/06/2011 Wendy wrote:
But, in case you hadn't noticed, it's largely misogynistic,
>racist and homophobic. With the odd jibe at incest and beastiality. This
>largely reflects attitudes and problems in our society that suck. I think
>it's quite reasonable to find them unreasonable.

Maybe, but when political correctness goes so far as to make jokes regarding minorities completely taboo, it only perpetuates the perceived rift between the minorities and the majority. In a society based on equality, there shouldn't be anything wrong with making a joke about homosexuals or women, or heterosexuals or men; and people definitely shouldn't be hushing up these jokes just because 'you can't say something like that!'. Seriously, i think most rational people are past taking the sort of sexist, racist, etc. jokes like those found in the old Nowra names seriously.

Sure, a lot of the old names weren't that funny, and at the end of the day they were just names, but censorship is censorship, and when one person decides what everyone should and shouldn't be exposed to it's a bad thing (IMO). I don't really care about the route names, but it's a bit disappointing that someone feels the need enforce their set of values on everyone for the sake of a few swear words and poor jokes, I thought Australians were a bit cooler than that.
RNM
6/06/2011
6:26:59 AM
I totally agree with the sentiment of the majority of posters. Why try and hide who we are and where we have come from? Do we really want to try and change Australia? Do we really want to encourage our kids to buy into all this new age pinko bull sh-t?

What is wrong with little b-tches growing up knowing their place in society? If you are born inferior, then the sooner you learn your place the better. Who really wants n-ggers to have equality?! As for anyone who choses to be homosexual - well, lets not even go there.

So what if anyone out side of a small group of has been males finds the route names mildly disturbing? Who gives a sh-t about all those foreigners, especially all those women that don't know their place in our society. Outsiders can think whatever they like about us. They are obviously not Aussie males like us, so who gives a shit about the w-ankers. Slap a god damn yellow star on the f-ckers .

I say keep the route names as they are. Our kids need to learn how to grow up and be proud Aussies. And while we are at it, why are we letting the politically correct leftos have their way with the rest of Australian history. I agree with Neil...

>I found it disappointing that names that have been in circulation for
>20 years have suddenly been changed. A route such as Sperm Bitches is an
>iconic route from its day - photos and news articles splashed over climbing
>mags. To change it totally means that a new climber won't connect the route
>with its past history.

But why only 20 years?! There is so much that Australia has to be proud of. Why not go back to 1960 when we could be proud that b-tches who were n-ggars couldn't vote. Our boys are entitled to feel proud about this, and our little shelia's and n-ggers should be taught this so they can connect their place in today’s society with their past history.

I stand proudly with my arm raised in salute, and say Aussie Aussie Aussie, Oi Oi Oi.

bobic
6/06/2011
7:46:41 AM
Is that supposed to be funny RNM?
RNM
6/06/2011
8:25:41 AM
As someone who doesn't have a connection to the place, it seems strange that anyone other than those who were there at the time would want to hold onto some of those names.

I agree with Wendy, but thought that putting it another way might help.


rodw
6/06/2011
8:36:35 AM
Nothing like a bit of revisionist history??

Anyway most of your so called racist names are not actually racists but lines, quotes, songs etc from NWA and Bodycount which is the music some of the FAers were listening to at the time they put up the routes...just becuase its sounds like its racist, dosnt mean it is if you understand the context of the name in the first place.
RNM
6/06/2011
9:30:39 AM
On 6/06/2011 rodw wrote:
>Anyway most of your so called racist names are not actually racists

>...just
>becuase its sounds like its racist, dosnt mean it is

Wait for it....

>if you understand
>the context of the name in the first place.

Exactly the point!

The point is that very few people know the context. Unless the guide has an explanation beside each name explaining the context (eg; Jimmy was high on drugs and picking his nose, and listening to NWA on the way to the crag, etc etc), then the reader can only take it at face value.

'Sperm Bitches' conjures images of guys getting laid with easy women, and thinking of them as bitches who are reduced to receptacles for the guys sperm.

I am sure if I had been there at the time I would think it was hilarious, and sure I've listened to Gangster Rap.... but I wasn't there, and the context isn't Compton, and the name just seems crass and degrading to women.

As an aside, I think that the word nigger is racist in any context (from memory, most of my old NWA tapes etc came with an 'R' rating).
RNM
6/06/2011
9:51:49 AM
On 6/06/2011 rodw wrote:
>Nothing like a bit of revisionist history??

Revisionist?

"In the 1960s moral outrage at the way countries like South Africa and the United States treated their black populations stirred Australians to look at their own behaviour. Many changes in Aborigines’ rights and treatment followed, including at long last full voting rights. The Menzies Liberal and Country Party government gave the Commonwealth vote to all Aborigines in 1962. Western Australia gave them State votes in the same year. Queensland followed in 1965. With that, all Aborigines had full and equal rights."

The Australian Electoral Commission

Should clarify that I toatlly understand how the names probably came about and how attached people probably feel to them, but as an 'outsider', they don't do justice to quite a cool crag. And yep, some of them are f-cking hilarious.
widewetandslippery
6/06/2011
9:53:00 AM
"f--- the Police" by NWA and "Copkiller" by Bodycount were both banned from airplay. That does not mean that sentiment amoungst many does not exist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M8vei3L0L8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsQYyr_L-cU

Now these fellas are all comical. But at the same time I hate police.

The sexual language is a parody on not many of us getting much at all, hard to find girlfriends hanging out in the old nowra tip!

So if the written word is not supplied with political correct footnotes it is not worthy of rememberance? You obviously and probably don't want Donne or Byron ever published again as it is an offense to your most pure sensibilities.


rodw
6/06/2011
9:56:13 AM
RNM just because you don't take the time to learn about a areas history dosn't mean it should just get wiped becuase you find it offensive...maybe Mr Young should have put a history section in the guide explaining it a bit..rather than just changing names on a whim.


rodw
6/06/2011
10:00:13 AM
On 6/06/2011 RNM wrote:
>On 6/06/2011 rodw wrote:
>>Nothing like a bit of revisionist history??
>
>Revisionist?
>
>"In the 1960s moral outrage at the way countries like South Africa and
>the United States treated their black populations stirred Australians to
>look at their own behaviour. Many changes in Aborigines’ rights and treatment
>followed, including at long last full voting rights. The Menzies Liberal
>and Country Party government gave the Commonwealth vote to all Aborigines
>in 1962. Western Australia gave them State votes in the same year. Queensland
>followed in 1965. With that, all Aborigines had full and equal rights."
>

Once again taking my coments out of context....much like the route names seem to be, which is all im refering too...Im not making comments on past white Australia policy, which has nothing to do with the names in question.

Phil S
6/06/2011
10:07:22 AM
On 6/06/2011 RNM wrote:

>...thought that putting it another way might help.

It does not help.

If I had a car sticker that said "Suck My Dick" would you take the time to explain to me all of the reasons why you are not going to? Would you sit your family down and talk about the dangers of sucking the dicks of strangers? I doubt it. Because...

It's just NONSENSE!

Assaulting me with a tire-iron would make more sense than attempting rational discussion about something that is clearly irrational.
RNM
6/06/2011
10:17:52 AM
Comical maybe, but they gave a voice to a powerful underclass. I love that sh-t man.

And I don't hate the police.

Sure, when I hear Gangster Rap I expect that language and attitude.

Without knowing you guys, or what you got up to, I would assume that Sperm Bitches etc etc are route names that refer to women you know/knew. To me personally it has no significance; I simply assume that the FA was a sexist jerk.

I do not mean to insult your fond memories. I guess my point is that they are YOUR fond memories. To many others, they are just rather inappropriate route names.

Worthy of remembrance?! Sure, a valid part of history, adds colour to the climbing scene, and all interesting stuff. I love that stuff. But I do not think that that means we can't modify the names to close approximations, and give a speil on the history and influences in a seperate section of a guide.

In my opinion it sounds like Rod did well finding a balance.

And I don't think I have met Donne or Byron - what have they climbed on grit?

rodw
6/06/2011
10:38:52 AM
I guess we will have to agree to disagree...for the record Ive never out up any routes at Nowra but do know some of the guys that have....I never thought any of the names were sexist or racist...crude and rude yes, funny sometimes..offensive no....maybe Im just too thick skinned or to much of a white Australian male to see how a climbing name could offend....but I can't see how a climbing name is anything more than a climbing name...people can read something into anything if they try hard enough...and its a slippery slope you start when a guide book author decides to change names without even asking the FAers there opinion.

In the end its done and the the world is still turning....

 Page 6 of 7. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 138
There are 138 messages in this topic.

 

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