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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 4 of 6. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 104
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
All NSW (General) (General) (General)  

Author
Shackles and the sheriff of Shipley

Miguel75
26/04/2011
2:46:12 PM
On 26/04/2011 rolsen1 wrote:
>If a leader leads the route and lowers and cleans the route then a second
>person leads the route and they both take the "middle ground" approach
>then there is exactly the same wear on the anchors as the leader who leads
>the route and lowers and then the second who top ropes and lowers.

Why couldn't they both clean on rappel?

>What about if I don't want you to place any bolts at a crag at all? Does
>that make it all right for me to go and yell at those who placed the bolts?

Isn't that a separate argument though?
Marssan
26/04/2011
3:08:19 PM
On 26/04/2011 rolsen1 wrote:

>
>Rubbish, you can't have it both ways, either no one lowers off or everyone
>can.
>
>So the accepted "middle ground" allows leaders to lower off anchors but
>not top ropers? If it is good enough for leaders to lower off an anchor
>than it is good enough for anyone. Yes, I agree but we should all try
>to minimise wear on any fixed gear but this just hero leaders looking down
>on top ropers, period.

@ Rolsen. You may have missed my point.

In the "middle ground" option whether it's a leader or top-roper, only the LAST climber of the group is lowered with the rope directly through the rings.

There is no "looking down" upon top ropers. I do plenty of top-roping myself - only never with the rope threaded through the rings

>
>If a leader leads the route and lowers and cleans the route then a second
>person leads the route and they both take the "middle ground" approach
>then there is exactly the same wear on the anchors as the leader who leads
>the route and lowers and then the second who top ropes and lowers.

No no no no. You have definitely missed my point.
The first climber would not clean the anchor draws, therefore lowering the first climber would not cause wear on the rings. Whether it''s a leader or a top-roper, only the last climber gets lowered through the rings directly.


>
>What about if I don't want you to place any bolts at a crag at all? Does
>that make it all right for me to go and yell at those who placed the bolts?

Now you're talking about something completely unrelated and much much more subjective. This ain't the place.
Marssan
26/04/2011
3:12:47 PM

>
>Why couldn't they both clean on rappel?
>

They could, and should.

The "middle ground" as described above has evolved as accepted practice because it's a compromise between speed/ease and decreasing (though not minimising) wear on the fixed gear.
Linze
26/04/2011
5:54:45 PM
I like the fact that everyone who got really stuck in decided that I was always top roping through the anchors all the time. Not for the first time on chockstone the facts have been willingly ignored so that a few can bang on about how ethically enlightened they are....

I never top rope through fixed anchors, I can’t even remember the last time I top roped. I do however sometimes set up a top rope for my girl friend. The first time she climbed it was straight thru the fixed gear... I thought that climbing would be challenge enough, shortly after she came down i told her that it was best not to use the fixed anchors. She has now been climbing a bit over the past 2 years or so - about a third of the time she leads, the rest of the time she top ropes. She has probably climbed about a average of two routes a week this year and together we can remember 3 (three!!!!!) occasions where we used the anchors, it is usually when she wants to do the bottom third of a route or something similar, in the case last week I hadn’t put the rope up, nor belayed the climber who had and therefore hadn’t given it any thought.

Regardless, i still don’t think that it is worth our while blaming those that occasionally top rope through the anchors for creating all the wear. For eg RNMs double the wear stuff is too simplistic – on Sunday, I climbed with someone who climbs significantly different grades to me, we do different warm ups and climb different routes. We roped up a combined 12 times for a total of 8 lower offs thru fixed gear. The day in question at Shipley 8 times for a total of 5 lowers off through fixed gear (including the offending run up jack high)... so you can still create a large(r in this case) proportion of lower off through fixed gear while doing the ‘right’ thing. The people who create the wear at Shipley are the ones that are there every weekend doing a million laps of loop the loop. You can stamp your feet up and down all day about top roping beginners, but really regular climbers do heaps of damage... These people are creating heaps more wear than my girlfriend doing two routes a week, and very occasionally creating one more (of a third of one more) lower off than was necessary. In addition those that do the ‘wrong’ thing usually do less climbing, and the fact that they are usually doing it in a limited number of areas means that the (potentially) slightly higher wear is easy to predict and manage.

I almost never see people put draws on the fixed biners at the top of trix, and they never get stolen, and they are aluminium – why is it ok here??? i wonder tho... RMN et al probably don’t need to use anchors at all because they can just step off straight on to their high horse... ;)

For some ,the process of learning to climb is intimidating - if the process can be made a little easier by letting them do something that has a slightly higher impact than I am all for it. I would answer my own original question by saying “it is best avoided but it is not the end of world if it makes a particular situation much better” – those with the mallets etc are taking themselves way too seriously, maybe you should give up climbing if it makes you so stressed.



davepalethorpe
26/04/2011
6:20:33 PM
Sounds like you have already made your mind up about the subject, so why bother bashing on about it, or even raising the topic in the first place if you are not prepared to listen to the comments of many experienced climbers on this forum??

rodw
26/04/2011
6:41:07 PM
When I bolt routes I have the idea that the top anchors rings will be used sparingly, i.e. only used to lower off on once your completely finished with the climb.....and pretty sure most people that install the things think the same way?......but TBH I wouldn't give a rats if someone top roped through them, if they start to wear down you can always whack some shackles on them before they got to bad.....and you don't even need any skills to install those...

.....so rather than trying to get a general consensus on chockstone (though I think you should start on something easier and broker an Israeli/Palestine peace deal..and work you way up).....carry on with what your doing, if you really feel justified in your actions tell anybody that tells you differently to fuk off and carry on with what you were doing....rabbitting on and whinging on chockstone aint gonna change anything.

Miguel75
26/04/2011
6:48:08 PM
On 20/04/2011 Linze wrote:
>...After giving this some thought, I want to know if this is really an issue
>for people....

>....So, I do actually want to find out: is top roping through these anchors
>really an issue for people??????? If it is i will go and put some biners
>up there...

You asked the question twice and received plenty of responses saying it is an issue.
Linze
26/04/2011
9:02:49 PM
On 26/04/2011 rodw wrote:
...but TBH I wouldn't give a rats if someone top
>roped through them, if they start to wear down you can always whack some
>shackles on them before they got to bad.....and you don't even need any
>skills to install those...
>
miguel et al - many 'experts' point the finger inaccurately... hence i started the thread.
Rodw's sort of attitude will lead to a happier life at even more peopled crags. happy now.... thanks rodw


Miguel75
26/04/2011
11:20:05 PM
On 26/04/2011 Linze wrote:
>miguel et al - many 'experts' point the finger unfairly...

Linze, you asked a question, received an answer and then say people are being unfair. If you wanted a specific answer you should have noted that in your original post. I know what it's like taking ones lumps here on Chocky, having asked lots of thoughtless questions and making silly comments. It's the Internet! For every 'expert' opinion here (on Chocky) there are many more in real life that should be more important. Unless of course you happen to get a response from Mikl or another legend of Australian rock, than I get all giddy and giggle... and take onboard their advice!





ambyeok
27/04/2011
9:33:40 AM
On 26/04/2011 Linze wrote:
>For some ,the process of learning to climb is intimidating - if the process
>can be made a little easier by letting them do something that has a slightly
>higher impact than I am all for it.

Ok, its easy to read through someones post and pick out something to have a go at. But reading that just makes me think WTF?
TonyB
27/04/2011
9:50:22 PM
On 26/04/2011 Marssan wrote:
>Best: First climber climbs route, puts draws on anchor, lowers from draws.
>Subsequent top-ropers climb with rope running through draws at anchor,
>subsequent leaders lower from the draws the first leader put up. Last climber
>(leader or seconder) cleans anchor, threads anchor rings and abseils from
>rope running directly through anchor.

This sounds like good practice but I've never seen anyone doing it. I've only seen the last climber lowered. Is rapping back down common here ? I suppose the only issue would be that it increases the chance of dropping the rope but I could see how this could be avoided.

nmonteith
27/04/2011
10:12:40 PM
The only place (in the world) that I have seen the rap clean ethic in the majority was at Paynes Ford in New Zealand. When I first saw people doing it I was utterly confused about what they were doing. I think rap cleaning certainly adds an extra danger and difficulty element if you're trying to clean a steeper route.
spicelab
27/04/2011
10:34:15 PM
Last year in the Frankenjura I noticed a lot, if not most, climbers rap cleaned.

martym
27/04/2011
10:56:30 PM
I've been living in Europe for over a year now, and while I'm excited about returning to the Aussie Wilderness - this type of dialogue reminds me of how petty things can get at home.

What I saw over the Easter weekend here was amazing.
I never climb at Shipley, it's too busy. That's every crag in Europe, on a rainy day!

Considering a new Sport Guide to the blueys has apparently been released, you can expect these situations to increase 10 fold - people will do what is most convenient for them. Visiting climbers will not understand the etiquette.
Climbing is a sport partaken by the masses, don't fight it, get more organised.

The problem as I understand it, is the government (NPWS) wants nothing to do with regulating a dangerous activity - so we have to regulate (and fund) ourselves. Whereas in EU, they have the Alpenverein and thousands of other organisations working with the National Parks. They exist almost solely on membership fees (not the fat profits of guidebook sales :)

My 2 cents is, rather than belittle clubs and organisations, all Aussie climbers should donate time, effort and money into improving their community.
I understand that many have done their fair share of passing the hat around.
But people need to keep up the effort.

shortman
27/04/2011
11:57:33 PM
On 27/04/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>The only place (in the world) that I have seen the rap clean ethic in the
>majority was at Paynes Ford in New Zealand. When I first saw people doing
>it I was utterly confused about what they were doing. I think rap cleaning
>certainly adds an extra danger and difficulty element if you're trying
>to clean a steeper route.

What about sport climbers in Tassie?!

Sonic
28/04/2011
8:29:13 AM
On 27/04/2011 martym wrote:

>The problem as I understand it, is the government (NPWS) wants nothing
>to do with regulating a dangerous activity - so we have to regulate (and
>fund) ourselves.

Thats because only very few areas in the Blueys are in the National Park. Most areas (ie all South of the Highway, including Shipley) are not in the Parks, but on Crown land. Therefore we need people like the Sheriff in order to keep a semblance of control and continue to be allowed access
simey
28/04/2011
8:57:14 AM
Talk about a load of wankers getting on their high horse just because some shackles might have to be replaced slightly more regularly. There are plenty of situations where I will top-rope directly through the shackles, particularly if I am climbing with less experienced climbers.

Given the impact that climbers have on cliff environments, this discussion verges on being a joke.
tris
28/04/2011
11:16:47 AM
Simey, why couldn't you just climb up after the less experienced climbers and clean it then?

Sabu
28/04/2011
11:40:25 AM
On 28/04/2011 tris wrote:
>Simey, why couldn't you just climb up after the less experienced climbers
>and clean it then?
Because that would involve simey having to climb..! :P

I'm bemused by this topic because I don't see how hard it is to put some draws on and lower off if everyone wants to have a go on the climb. As for the debate about lowering off or rapping off; I know i'm slightly more comfortable with the former given you can stay in the system the entire time whereas rapping involves removing yourself and equalising the rope before you can get back in. That said, there can be confusion with the lower offs when a climber says "safe" then wants to get back on belay etc, so from that perspective rapping off minimises the potential error from someone else.
bones
28/04/2011
11:58:51 AM
a synopsis, in my opinion.

People spend money to equip routes and would prefer if people reduce wear on them as much as possible. It doesn't take much effort to clean a route in most cases, so you might as well help out. In occasional situations it might be a pain in the ass, and it's not the end of the world if the rope runs through the shackles every now and then in these cases.
If you see beginners putting excessive wear on shackles, highlight it nicely but don't be an asshole, it's not worth it.

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There are 104 messages in this topic.

 

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