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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 4 of 6. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 111
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
All NSW (General) (General) (General)  


5:21:31 PM
A handfull of new routes at canyon cliffs,all trad
#Tango Spotted 20m 20ish (needs to be confirmed...........:-)
10m right of Hanicaped (facing cliff)
Up orange slab (reachy for me) using pockets for gear to 2nd pebely break
than technical traverse right for 5m (micro cams) to obvious 5m vertical crack with good gear to top!

#Just the two of us

15m fist crack 5m Right of Short and Sweet
and about 5m from arete (facing cliff)
19 ish
Reg Heath
7:15:54 AM
Great pics Neil! They should make excellent area overviews and topos for the ACA. I'll just get this other wee book out of the way and then I'll give you a hand to draw them up.
11:47:41 AM
I was looking at the bungles guide on the aca website to notice that there were a few routes that were drawn on (specifically) jo goding's photo topo of bluff mountain which weren't written up.
As I don't have access to the paper guide book, are these new routes? (they're labeled 1&2 on the topo) Are they in the guidebook? Is there a list of new routes somewhere, or a guidebook update, or, in general, an online update? Things like info re: new anchors, or descent routes, new bolts (i don't know if there are old bolts on any routes to begin with!)
thanks for any info!

12:13:59 PM
Joe's topos aren't exactly much help on the ACA. The first one with topo lines shows 1) Bastian Buttress and 2) Flight of the Pheonix.

His 2nd topo (with the same numbering system confusingly!) also shows old established routes. I don't have the print guide with me - but perhaps Rimfire or Stonewall Jackson?

The best guide is the old Rock Magazine A6 B&W guide from the 1990s. There are some new routes listed on the ACA site...

1:07:50 PM
The Bungles are sooooo overdue for a guide!

For the old routes I have found the route descriptions from Joe Friend's old guide more useful than the Colyvan (Rock mag) guide. I should probably put it up on the webernet for all to access.

Melding all the various route info sources together for an interim Bungles guide probably wouldn't be too much work for someone who is reasonably familiar with the area. If there are any volunteers, send me an email, I can help you get started.

1:12:05 PM
On 30/03/2011 superstu wrote:
>Melding all the various route info sources together for an interim Bungles
>guide probably wouldn't be too much work for someone who is reasonably

and jrc wrote:
> A grade 16 variant to the crux pitch of Cornerstone; climbs the corner by the tree inside the gully. I wrote this up in the book on the summit.

OK i take that back...

1:15:23 PM
On 30/03/2011 superstu wrote:

>For the old routes I have found the route descriptions from Joe Friend's
>old guide more useful than the Colyvan (Rock mag) guide. I should probably
>put it up on the webernet for all to access.

Hey Superstu, several folks have said that the Joe Friend guide is better than the Rock one (which is definitely not great). Feel free to scan and put up online.
1:33:01 PM
Nothing like spending Good Friday walking around with a pair of binoculars and working out just where the big lines go. If you put in a few hard yards planning you might just get up a big route or 2. They are not impossible to climb, they are acually fairly obvious and on Bluff certainly there is excellent wire nut / cam protection. I have not yet found a single 'old bolt' belay that could not be backed up with multiple bomber nuts. Even the belay at the start of the FotP traverse needs no bolts if you know how to place gear. The bolts are handy as route markers however & one wouldn't go astray as a runner on the 'crux' pitch of Elijah ...Be very careful of the Friend & Colyvan guides. They are not necessarily wrong, just open to interpretation.
4:27:04 PM
Neil, didn't you and Mikl put up some new routes? the 24 (i think i saw that on the aca site) et al? Are all your "new routes" updated on the aca site?
I couldn't find the link on google to the thread about your exploits....

5:11:40 PM
The two routes we did are here:
7:43:13 AM
Peeps - the only way this place is going to get a facelift (guidebook wise) is if we make it happen. I've made a start, but it's a big job and needs a lot of input from others to get it across the line.

We need decent quality photos, and some people who have climbed the routes to clarify where they go.

I would be happy to do some work on clarifying this in topo format. I don't have any plans to travel there again for some time so not willing to obtain the base images myself.

Writing an entire guidebook for the bungles is not something I'm keen to do, but for such a special area to go overlooked for so long both makes it a bit frustrating, but also kind of cool - it's one of the last true adventure cliffs around that I know of. Finding your way without good information is a bit of a lost artform, and used to be the norm - not the spoon feeding kind of guidebooks that are all the rage these days.

So.... how about if anyone is heading up that way they get some decent quality photos and post me a CD/DVD and some hard copy that's been marked up clearly showing what's what.

I can then turn them into pretty topos which would be posted for free on the ACA website.

Neil (and others) may even lend a hand. Will anyone else put their hand up to share the load of documenting what goes where?

Neil - did you get much in the way of good photos when you were up there last?

8:45:55 AM
I have good topo photos for most of the main formations. What mostly needs doing is entering the route descriptions from the old guides - but i think Rock loves to make life painful by putting copyright restrictions on its publications....

Making a guide to the main areas actually wouldn't be that hard as there really isn't that many routes - at max a hundred. You are right - what it really needs is someone who has actually done the routes to draw the topos so they a accurate. No point in doings topos if we arent 100% sure where the routes go.

Crator Bluff would be a good place to start...

The good Dr
9:18:42 AM
If you want to start at Crater Bluff I can add the topo for the route we did in the late 90s. How are you doing the topos currently?
9:29:14 AM
On 31/03/2011 nmonteith wrote:
> - but i think Rock loves to make life painful by putting copyright restrictions on its publications....

You can't copyright route descriptions.

9:32:41 AM
On 31/03/2011 simey wrote:
>You can't copyright route descriptions.

I call bullshit on that one Simey! What if its a humorous description paying out a love sick curly haired climber. Anything more than the basics of left & right I presume would be copyright.

10:02:56 AM
It depends on who wrote the 'spice' in the climb description. If the FA ascentionist submitted flowery route descriptions, my assumption is that route information is now in the public domain and not to be copyrighted by the first person to publish it.

If the guidebook editor adds the spice, yes you could argue copyright, but why bother... copyright only serves commercial interests and if you're trying to make money out of old guides then that's a public disservice.

10:07:12 AM
As for a guidebook to the Warrumbungles, the SRC 'thesarvo' system is the ideal spot for a new bungles guidebook. Everybody can contribute wiki-style, and jrc has offered to be editor in chief. I have set up the framework and will get the basic route descriptions online in the next few days.

10:10:31 AM
On 31/03/2011 The good Dr wrote:
>If you want to start at Crater Bluff I can add the topo for the route we
>did in the late 90s. How are you doing the topos currently?

Please add your route description - and upload a rough topo. Then at a later date we can then combine this rough topo into our proper topo (made in Adobe Illusrartor).

dave h.
11:27:09 AM
I dunno, I think Simey may be right.

Copyright lawyers speak of the 'idea/expression' dichotomy. Copyright protects the expression of ideas in a particular way, not the idea itself. Courts have taken the view that some ideas are so basic that they really couldn't be expressed in many ways - for instance, you've got many more options open to you if you're writing a poem than you do if you're writing a phonebook. I forget the reasoning in the phonebook cases, but seem to recall that in some of them courts held that mere effort undertaken in collecting information didn't guarantee copyright - how else could you publish a list of names and.numbers...

I think for guidebooks like the Rock guide you might be able to make a similar argument. I think a guidebook like the new Araps book is a different kettle of fish though.

Anyway, even if it is copyrighted you can still use it as a source of information. But obviously that'd be more work than being able to lift the descriptions straight out of it..

11:30:56 AM
The copyright that I have an issue with is people using flowery descriptions from free online guides - and pasting this verbatim into a profit making guide. The 'author' of this new print guide doesn't have to do much work if they can just steal others work.

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