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Jenny Wren

Yonnie

11-Nov-2010
7:42:47 PM

Mike Stone has been watching this thread and his response is.....

Hey Jen, I’ve been keeping an eye on the thread re Jenny Wren and have noted Simey’s comments. I did not, and never have rapped and pre bolted a route. Swinging (done 6 months before J W) was, so far as I am aware, the only pre bolted climb at that time and that caused a fair amount of discussion regarding the ethics of doing so at the time. It didn’t become common practice for some years after that when the next generation of climbers came through.

simey

11-Nov-2010
8:00:10 PM

Well I must apologise Mike. That certainly puts a different spin on Jenny Wren and it makes it a very impressive ascent on your behalf. I am surprised that no guidebook has mentioned the fact that you led it this way and that you placed the bolt and the pin on lead.

I certainly prefer the route in its current state, but I'm more than willing to remove the extra bolts and simply replace your original bolt if you wish.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

11-Nov-2010
8:31:02 PM

On 11/11/2010 simey wrote:
>Well I must apologise Mike. That certainly puts a different spin on Jenny
>Wren and it makes it a very impressive ascent on your behalf. I am surprised
>that no guidebook has mentioned the fact that you led it this way and that
>you placed the bolt and the pin on lead.

This was standard practise back in the day was it not?

>I certainly prefer the route in current state, but I'm more than willing
>to remove the extra bolts and simply replace your original bolt if you
>wish.
>

I applaud your sentiment here.
~> Fair dinkum, I am impressed by it.
Cheers
Idra~>M9

On 11/11/2010 davidn wrote;
>Out of curiousity, if you (M9) or anyone else reading this had to suggest five 3-star classics that should never be bolted/retrobolted, would this one be on the list?

Why stop at five? Why not retro-bolt everything that does not suit you?

~> It has been led as is. I don’t believe it needs retro-ing to make it something for the modern climber to “aspire to”.
Some modern climbers climb very well, and like their adventure unadulterated, ... read not sanitised down!
Other old farts like myself recognise the original achievement as it stands, and choose to climb it (or not), on that basis.

>What would be on the list?

... You will have to ask simey that question as I don’t retro-bolt routes.


Doug

11-Nov-2010
8:32:53 PM

Notwithstanding the route having been led without pre-inspection, good work Simey in making the route more a logical and rewarding experience. All done as one pitch, no side-stepping into QV, no pointless wandering around the arete to see if there is gear off the line.
If a route is going to have any artificial pro on it, it might as well be sufficient to stop someone from dying. It's not as if Jenny Wren is now a clip-up - it sounds like most people climbing at about the grade would be looking for additional gear if they can get it.
As far as the first ascensionist of a route having the last word, well that is just wrong. Their voice is important, but so are a whole range of other considerations.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

11-Nov-2010
8:58:36 PM

On 11/11/2010 Doug Bruce wrote:
>Notwithstanding the route having been led without pre-inspection, good
>work Simey in making the route more a logical and rewarding experience.
>All done as one pitch, no side-stepping into QV, no pointless wandering
>around the arete to see if there is gear off the line.
>If a route is going to have any artificial pro on it, it might as well
>be sufficient to stop someone from dying. It's not as if Jenny Wren is
>now a clip-up - it sounds like most people climbing at about the grade
>would be looking for additional gear if they can get it.

I can maybe be convinced that this action has merit from a climbing perspective, but I still consider history (ie our climbing roots), important.

>As far as the first ascensionist of a route having the last word, well
>that is just wrong. Their voice is important, but so are a whole range
>of other considerations.

With all respect, if you ever retro one of my routes I will chop them, as I believe that people should have the choice of whether or not they want to run the risk of dying vs adventure to the max! ... and if I choose to put up a death route, then it is EXACTLY (that I ascended it), for that (challenge), reason!
☺


Doug

11-Nov-2010
9:09:13 PM

>... and if I choose to put up a death route, then it is EXACTLY
>(that I ascended it), for that (challenge), reason!
>☺
Yep. True. But why bother publishing route details? Are you doing it to blow your own trumpet, or to share something with the wider climbing community? And is a route a death route for you if it is much easier than your onsighting ability? As I said before, lots of other questions are important, not just the ego of the first ascensionist. Like where the route is; what is the context of the cliff, the particular crag, how has it developed historically, what is the future likely to hold for the area, etc., etc.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

11-Nov-2010
9:23:33 PM

On 11/11/2010 Doug Bruce wrote:
>Yep. True. But why bother publishing route details? Are you doing it to
>blow your own trumpet, or to share something with the wider climbing community?
>And is a route a death route for you if it is much easier than your onsighting
>ability? As I said before, lots of other questions are important, not just
>the ego of the first ascensionist. Like where the route is; what is the
>context of the cliff, the particular crag, how has it developed historically,
>what is the future likely to hold for the area, etc., etc.

I don't generally publish my route details. Maybe that is remiss of me, but I don't (generally), give a stuff if they are repeated or not!
Note: Many would consider them choss, so I doubt they would ever be popular!

A death route for me is still a route at my aspired to, maximum ability.
I aspire to put up an M10 at Mt Buffalo one day. If it is anything less than M10, then it is not a route that you will die on, because to merit the grade of M10 that almost is an intrinsic pre-requisite part of the experience...
☺

egosan

11-Nov-2010
9:40:08 PM

On 11/11/2010 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>
>I aspire to put up an M10 at Mt Buffalo one day. If it is anything less
>than M10, then it is not a route that you will die on, because to merit
>the grade of M10 that almost is an intrinsic pre-requisite part of the
>experience!
>☺

"Yup, there you have it. A confirmed M10." He points at the body, "Right! who's next?"

Seriously Doug, Considering all the variables is just how we rationalize our entirely arbitrary decisions. Yes you can structure an argument that adding bolts to a route is in the best interests of the wider climbing community. You can even structure arguments that justify invading foreign countries. There is no shortage of routes to choose from. Led in all different styles. Pick one you like and climb it. Please don't think for an instant that you have my best interest at heart when retro-bolting your next route.

simey

11-Nov-2010
9:49:42 PM

>With all respect, if you ever retro one of my routes I will chop them,
>as I believe that people should have the choice of whether or not they
>want to run the risk of dying vs adventure to the max! ... and if I choose
>to put up a death route, then it is EXACTLY (that I ascended it), for that
>(challenge), reason!

Well it depends upon whether your death lead has been done in a style that is admirable in the first place. Bold leads that have been rap-inspected and top-roped to death beforehand don't hold much weight in my opinion.

If your aim is to free climb a route and your first move is to rap inspect a route, then you are already compromising your values. That is why I value Mike Stone's ascent of Jenny Wren now that I know the full story. For me understanding and appreciating the history behind a route will often inspire me to attempt such routes which I might otherwise avoid.

simey

11-Nov-2010
10:10:22 PM

On 11/11/2010 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>... You will have to ask simey that question as I don’t retro-bolt routes.

Yeah, but you will happily climb routes that have been retro-ed and have probably enjoyed them even more (ie Noblesse Oblige).


custardarms

11-Nov-2010
10:54:00 PM

Good work on the retro-bolt Simey. Next time I am at Araps I will have a look at JW and maybe climb it. Then I might get to enjoy a good route in a nice place and admire the boldness of the first ascessionist. When it was left as an obscure forgotten death route no-one got to enjoy the route. First ascents should not lock up the route for evermore, by the same token not everything should be a clip-up sport route. Consultation and commonsense needed.

robertsonja

11-Nov-2010
10:56:08 PM

On 10/11/2010 davidn wrote:
>On 16/12/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>>On 11/12/2009 dalai wrote:

>So basically, yawn.

Sounds like you may need a lie down and a nanna nap

robertsonja

11-Nov-2010
10:59:11 PM

On 10/11/2010 simey wrote:
>On 10/11/2010 robertsonja wrote:
>>Another half dozen of your bolts that need chopping.
>
>I would much rather read your posts if you were capable of presenting
>some rational argument.

The fact that an Arapiles climb has been “post published retro bolted”, which could be a first, probably negates all rational discussion.

At the time of your writings, such a decision to retro bolt was based from a 20 year memory, things change over two decades, and because you had now published your writings you were forced into a position to go out bolting. That is the thing with “post published retro bolted” climbs, probably not the best methodology.

Sometimes we can forget the purpose of a guidebook.

There was no consultation with any audience nor the FA.

You had heard of no one repeating the route, it most certainly has been repeated, and bold is bold.

The original line stepped R to find pro. There is nothing wrong with stepping R to find gear, I do it all the time, sometimes I even step L (hehehe). That is the thing with trad, the line can often be determined by the pro. Not all the climbs at Arapiles have to be bolted into straight affairs, nor bolted into safe protected affairs, nor straight safe protected lines. The outcome of climbing such a line is now so much more predictable.

Now we have a line on natural gear, Quo Vadis, that can step R onto a “post published retro bolted” line. Not of our trad lines should have to compete for real estate with 21st century bolted lines, especially “post published retro bolted” climbs.

The new bolts on the arête now determines where the climber shall climb, where as a climber would have followed whatever natural line was pleasing.

The two new bolts at the direct start, more retro steel…..

And now there are bolts at the top, another retro bolted belay

robertsonja

11-Nov-2010
11:13:30 PM

On 11/11/2010 simey wrote:
>Well I must apologise Mike. That certainly puts a different spin on Jenny
>Wren and it makes it a very impressive ascent on your behalf.

That is what happens when you post publish retro bolt without consultation and it is certainly is impressive my friend, bold is bold, and now bold is custard.

>I certainly prefer the route in current state, but I'm more than willing
>to remove the extra bolts and simply replace your original bolt if you
>wish.

I've got you covered on this one.

dalai

11-Nov-2010
11:31:34 PM

Having onsighted this route probably 14 years ago in it's original state, all I recall is a proud line spoilt by being badly equiped (ie untrustworthy fixed gear and not much else to back it up with) and due to minimal traffic pretty mossy. Other than position, I couldn't see why this route attracted even a star!

I'd say the retrobolt has turned this waste of space into a worthwhile endeavor. Although due to still having spaced gear it still won't get huge numbers of repeats, the additional traffic over the one or two every now and then it would have had before being fixed will clean it up and be far more enjoyable!

simey

11-Nov-2010
11:40:01 PM

Robertsonja - The reason I find your arguments so tedious is because you only see things from one perspective. You also love to tell me how I don't consult anybody, but you actually have no idea of how many people Glenn and I speak to when writing the guidebook.

You love to find fault in everything I do, but I am not aware of any worthwhile contribution from you in climbing.

Tell you what - I will happily remove all the bolts from Jenny Wren and its direct start providing you let me hold your ropes when you lead it.

robertsonja

12-Nov-2010
12:21:25 AM

On 11/11/2010 simey wrote:

>You love to find fault in everything I do, but I am not aware of any worthwhile
>contribution from you in climbing.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings bro, and I don't love to find fault in everything you do. Arapiles is not the place for pox and stuff like retro bolting belays, such as Echo crag, is pox, and putting up lame two move bolted wonders like Touchtype (between a pure trad line and it's variant) is pox. We are the custodians of a very special place. My contribution will come from try to conserve what we have, certainly not "developing" it.

>Tell you what - I will happily remove all the bolts from Jenny Wren and
>its direct start providing you let me hold your ropes when you lead it.

Sounds like they'll be no need for rope.

simey

12-Nov-2010
1:12:23 AM

On 12/11/2010 robertsonja wrote:
>On 11/11/2010 simey wrote:
>
>>You love to find fault in everything I do, but I am not aware of any
>worthwhile contribution from you in climbing.
>
>Sorry if I hurt your feelings bro,

You haven't.

>and I don't love to find fault in everything you do.
>Arapiles is not the place for pox and stuff like retro bolting
>belays, such as Echo crag, is pox, and putting up lame two move bolted
>wonders like Touchtype (between a pure trad line and it's variant) is pox.

We will just have to agree to disagree about these routes and this area.

>We are the custodians of a very special place. My contribution will come
>from try to conserve what we have, certainly not "developing" it.

Great, I will look forward to seeing you at every working bee at Arapiles.

>>Tell you what - I will happily remove all the bolts from Jenny Wren and
>>its direct start providing you let me hold your ropes when you lead it.
>
>Sounds like they'll be no need for rope.

I will bring the camera then.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

12-Nov-2010
11:36:36 AM

On 11/11/2010 simey wrote:
>>Re Idra~>M9 wrote;
>>With all respect, if you ever retro one of my routes I will chop them,
>>as I believe that people should have the choice of whether or not they
>>want to run the risk of dying vs adventure to the max! ... and if I choose
>>to put up a death route, then it is EXACTLY (that I ascended it), for
>that (challenge), reason!
>
>Well it depends upon whether your death lead has been done in a style
>that is admirable in the first place. Bold leads that have been rap-inspected
>and top-roped to death beforehand don't hold much weight in my opinion.
>
>If your aim is to free climb a route and your first move is to rap inspect
>a route, then you are already compromising your values. That is why I value
>Mike Stone's ascent of Jenny Wren now that I know the full story. For me
>understanding and appreciating the history behind a route will often inspire
>me to attempt such routes which I might otherwise avoid.

You and I actually have a lot more in common than difference/s of opinion, as I agree wholeheartedly with that.

Re climbing retro-ed routes you wrote;
>Yeah, but you will happily climb routes that have been retro-ed and have probably enjoyed them even more (ie Noblesse Oblige).

What do you expect from an old aid climber? Heh, heh, heh.

Grey areas in our game abound.
The older I get, the greyer I think I am becoming.
Yes, I happily climb (or try to), most things / styles, including retro-ed, though I am on cyber-record as not regarding Noblesse Oblige as requiring of the retro. I can search out link/s if you like(!), but I trust you would take my word for that...

Regarding Jenny Wren, I shall aspire to climb it in it's new form before it is retro-de-retro-ed as some posts above suggest (with or without ropes), as I am sure staying with the arete would be much more exciting and a purer sport-style-line than the trad face-wandering beside it, because from what I know of Araps history is that both styles evolve/d, though the manner of their ongoing evolvement and co-existence is rightly to be scrutinised.
☺


vwills

12-Nov-2010
1:06:35 PM

I thought the retro-ed route is good. Its not a sports route. Its still a tad scary. You still get to wiggle in about 6-8 bits of gear, a couple of which you can kick out on the way past and if you fall off theres substantial air time. Dont repeat the blight seen on snowblind- a big ugly scar (and a replaced piton).
Leave the bolts there

There are 51 messages in this topic.