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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 87
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
All NSW (General) (General) (General)  

Author
Lindfield Rocks

kuu
19/08/2010
5:31:12 PM
On 19/08/2010 hotgemini wrote:
>As an outsider, it feels a lot like you guys are shopping for reasons to
>oppose rings.
>
>IMHO the main reason old carrots have a reputation for a low visual profile
>is because most were mild steel and rapidly rusted to match the surrounding
>rock. Appropriately recessed and camouflaged, either a stainless steel
>glue-in carrot (SSGIC) or a ring provides a suitable low-profile anchor.
>
>Personally if it were me I'd go the ringbolts for three reasons, firstly

>they allow use without needing a bolt plate, secondly they slightly harder
>to vandalise and thirdly I hate standing on bloody carrots, every time
>I go to point perp I stand on at least one rap bolt and end up with a hex-shaped
>bruise in my foot.
>
>If they are to be carrots, I'd encourage you to make them 10mm 316, long

>(say 80-125mm), add additional notching and roughening to the shaft, grind
>back the tips of the hex head so all bolt plates will fit and as mentioned
>previously glue them in with an appropriate epoxy.
>
>I wouldn't however, I'd go the rings. My first choice would be the >href="http://www.fixeclimbing.com/en/index.php?opcion=31&id_producto=579&id_subcategoria=6
>>fixe #727 but I do not believe there are any in the country. Next
>choice would be the fixe #541, you might have some luck sourcing
>these (first ask steve from climbing anchors, then if you don't have any
>luck try mountain equipment). Third choice would be fixe 014.
>
>With care and attention in placing and camouflaging with a glue/dirt mix,

>they blend in so well that the issue you will face is climbers completely
>failing to notice their existence. If you'd like I'll grab some photos
>to demonstrate the point.
>
>Again I'd like to re-emphasise that these anchors should be there for

>25-50 years, so to some degree you've got to consider how much use lindfield
>will see between now and 2060 and design/specify appropriately.
>
>-Adam.

Hi Adam,

I agree in principle with all you've said above. BUT, Lindfield is not like Kangaroo Point. It is NOT a Council approved (and facilitated) climbing or bouldering area. Climbers use it without any official imprimatur. If, at some time in the future, the local Council recognises climbing as a legitimate activity at The Rocks that would be great. At such time it might be sensible to have discussions with Council regarding the safety and other aspects of the various bolting options but in the meantime it seems prudent to maintain a low profile.

nmonteith
19/08/2010
5:34:46 PM
On 19/08/2010 kuu wrote:
>Neil, that's being simplistic and silly!

I know - sorry.

>As you increase the numbers you
>increase the impact, it stands to reason. I would have thought by now you
>would have understood that, in sensitive areas, carrots (I'm talking here
>about S/S glue-in versions) have much lower visual impact.

I beg to differ. Some people equate rings to the big ugly glue-messes you see in much of the Blue Mountains. They can be done MUCH better than that. You may see a difference but i challenge you to show a non-climber these two photos and ask what the difference is.



Climbers have been visiting that area for 50+ years haven't they? I very much doubt the council would ban it after a hand full of new bolts got installed. It's practically a heritage site...

>Why, as climbers, do we feel we have to dominate and
>ignore other people's sensitivity?

What really needs to be done is to place the very MINIMUM number of bolts required as far back as possible and hidden from view in rock recesses, and to clean up the old carrots in the very best way. No scars, stubs or broken rock. You want to leave the place looking better than it ever did. It's all in the execution. You certainly DON'T want someone learning to bolt to go out there and experiment. It's best if its done by someone who really knows what they are doing before some random decides to do it themselves (see Earlwood story http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=1&MessageID=82723&Replies=1

kuu
19/08/2010
5:50:04 PM
On 19/08/2010 nmonteith wrote:
>On 19/08/2010
>
>I beg to differ. Some people equate rings to the big ugly glue-messes
>you see in much of the Blue Mountains. They can be done MUCH better than
>that. You may see a difference but i challenge you to show a non-climber
>these two photos and ask what the difference is.

Well, to begin with, the image scale is different! Rings are necessarily larger than the heads of carrot bolts. They wouldn't be functional otherwise.
>
>What really needs to be done is to place the very MINIMUM number of bolts
>required as far back as possible and hidden from view in rock recesses,
>and to clean up the old carrots in the very best way. No scars, stubs or
>broken rock. You want to leave the place looking better than it ever did.
>It's all in the execution. You certainly DON'T want someone learning to
>bolt to go out there and experiment. It's best if its done by someone who
>really knows what they are doing before some random decides to do it themselves
>(see Earlwood story http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=1&Mes
>ageID=82723&Replies=1

I have no argument with that. If it's to be done then it should reflect best possible current practice.

kuu
19/08/2010
5:56:01 PM
On 19/08/2010 Wingello Panther

>Heritage hah, the place is a quarry and has even been used for aid climbing
>in the past.

You've obviously never been there. For a 'supposed' quarry it has a very natural appearance, one that is worth maintaining.

voodoo
19/08/2010
6:04:09 PM
On 19/08/2010 nmonteith wrote:
>You may see a difference but i challenge you to show a non-climber
>these two photos and ask what the difference is.
>
>
>

I have to say that your pictures are pretty disingenuous, Neil. You're asking for a comparison of two photos that are taken at wildly different levels of zoom.

This is what it should look like, courtesy of the photoshop measure tool...



Once they're appropriately sized for comparison, the argument isn't quite as compelling.

nmonteith
19/08/2010
6:29:53 PM
I give up. Do what you want. Chances are no one will do anything anyway.

rodw
19/08/2010
6:48:01 PM
Lol......Monty I was waiting for that....now whos willing to put the new cammo carrots in?????

pmonks
20/08/2010
3:17:56 AM
On 19/08/2010 nmonteith wrote:
>So if i placed 100 carrots all would be good in the world and everyone
>would be happy then?

Neil, you really should take the extra 30 seconds to read everything that was written before jumping in half-arsed and ending up looking like a doofus.

If you do go back and reread, you will notice I said (emphasis added, but other than that this is a literal quote):


"the visual impacts (the number, location and type of the replacement bolts) need to be especially carefully considered"



nmonteith
20/08/2010
9:44:15 AM
On 20/08/2010 pmonks wrote:
>Neil, you really should take the extra 30 seconds to read everything that
>was written before jumping in half-arsed and ending up looking like a doofus.

I just don't understand why this had to turn into a carrot vs rings argument. There seems to be good reasons not to use carrots (abseilers and some climbers don't own plates, people can f---up using wiregates on carrots, the bolts can be unscrewed by the general public). The only alledged positive of carrots is the visibility issue - which I think is a false argument. The old carrots have been there for decades and no local has complained. So what makes you think if there were newer bolts it would suddenly change the whole thing? I would think chalk, rubbish and erosion would be MUCH bigger problems for the locals at that area.

BTW the whole scale issue discussed above. Ever heard of 8mm ringbolts? You don't need the 10mm thickness for top anchors as they don't have the same degree of wear you get with lower-offs.

pmonks
20/08/2010
9:50:37 AM
On 20/08/2010 nmonteith wrote:
>The only alledged positive of carrots is the visibility issue - which I think is
> a false argument. The old carrots have been there for decades and no local has
> complained. So what makes you think if there were newer bolts it would suddenly
> change the whole thing?

Are you saying that shiny new ring bolts (be they recessed, 8mm, blah blah blah) are going to have the same visual impact as the old, rock-coloured carrots?? If so you may want to consider seeing an optometrist!

nmonteith
20/08/2010
10:01:50 AM
On 20/08/2010 pmonks wrote:
>Are you saying that shiny new ring bolts (be they recessed, 8mm, blah
>blah blah) are going to have the same visual impact as the old, rock-coloured
>carrots?? If so you may want to consider seeing an optometrist!

Yes. Because they won't be shiny as shown in my picture above - they would be painted and covered in sand. You might be able to tell there is a few mm of difference but in the grand scheme of things they are practically the same size. Don't look at it in the macro scale - look at in in the perspective of the whole park. Certainly when it comes to the general public a bolt is just a bolt. I challenge someone to do a side by side comparison with a random non-climber person between a well recessed 8mm ring and a carrot - and ask them which they find the most offensive. Chances are they will go - WTF? I know i've had to point out bolts at crags to non-climbers before - all they see is the chalk and the erosion. Many years ago I had a run-in with rangers at Summerday Valley when i was rebolting a route. The camo ringbolt bolt I had just placed was 3m off the ground and rangers could not spot it from the ground. I had to get a stick and point it out to them. If a ranger looking specifically can't see the bolt with me pointing it out to them then i'm pretty confident that mr joe public won't find them distressing. I would prefer the trees didn't get trashed and climbers didn't rig death setups using slings/wires over bolt heads than potentially offend a handfull of climbers stuck in the 1970s.

tnd
20/08/2010
10:55:22 AM
I hardly ever even look at Chockstone now because of crap like this; I check back in and lo and behold, well I never, there's a carrots vs rings argument. Fcuk me dead!

I'm right with Neil on this. Get the fcuk over carrots! The old ones blended in because they were rusty mild steel. A stainless carrot will actually be quite noticeable in Lindfield rock. A good solution to this is what Neil and hotgemini have suggested - thoughtfully placed rings at intervals, set well back (perhaps under bushes if available) and camouflaged. They'll hardly be spotted at all by the casual visitor and will be easy to use for top-ropers.

I'm signing out now for another year or two. No doubt it'll still be the same when I come back.
hargs
20/08/2010
10:57:21 AM
FWIW I'm with Adam and Neil: I think well placed, suitably camouflaged rings are the way to go at Lindfield -- and generally I'm lumped in with the crusty traditionalists Wingello Panther railed against earlier. Consider how the area will be used -- for the next several decades as Adam pointed out -- and the ease of use and safety benefits of rings outweigh any perceived difference in visual impact. It's not like rings have a massive visual impact and bolts have none -- they both have some visual impact, the question is whether the difference is worth the cost in terms of safety and ease of use. Personally, I don't think so.

The way this gear is installed will have a bigger effect on casual observers and whether or not they find it offensive. Untidy, poorly placed glue bombs are more likely to be offensive -- whether it's a bolt or a ring -- and neat, well camouflaged, out-of-the-way gear probably won't even be noticed. If we do a good job of removing old, bent and rusting carrots, I think most casual observers -- i.e., local non-climbers -- would appreciate the "conservation" effort.

MonkeyBoy
20/08/2010
11:04:58 AM
Just to redirect this conversation a little - with the removal of the old bols what are peoples views on the neatest and most widely accepted ways of removing the old carots ?


Butters81
20/08/2010
11:06:32 AM
I live fairly close to this area, and have only seen other people using the area walking along the track at the base of the crag.
The track is part of the Two Creeks walk which goes down to Middle Harbour. There is no need for the bushwalkers to access the top of the rocks, and I havn't seen any doing so.
The only group I've seen abseiling there was a bunch of paramedics training there (using the trees as anchors).
The other issue is with climbers descending down a gully (on She-Oak wall I think?) which has trashed the gully and the roots of the tree arn't in the best shape.
So yeh, if we can come to some sort of consensus about what to place and where, I'm happy to lend some time
maxdacat
20/08/2010
11:09:38 AM
This thread started off by asking about a practice bolt with a snapped hanger....now it's a rings vs carrot debate?

I wasn't aware there was any issues with the carrots at the top of the routes.....they look pretty much as dodgy as they did 20 yrs ago.

I really don't consider this a major issue....if re-anchoring is required and rings were put in and the job done well so be it. Talk of chopping them is way over the top.
devlin66
20/08/2010
11:10:34 AM
I'll +1 the rings over carrots for the reasons already said.
One Day Hero
20/08/2010
12:05:10 PM
On 19/08/2010 hotgemini wrote:
>and thirdly I hate standing on bloody carrots, every time
>I go to point perp I stand on at least one rap bolt and end up with a hex-shaped
>bruise in my foot.
>
Wow! I didn't expect anyone as pussy as this to actually climb at the Point. Should probably also knock protruding pebbles out of the clifftop so you don't stub your toe, chop the bushes back cause they're all scratchy......chip a few pockets to avoid the ouchy cruxes in the cracks......

I don't feel like conducting a bolt war at my favorite crag. For every ring which appears on top of Point Perp, I'm going to chop a couple at Tianjara :)
hotgemini
20/08/2010
12:21:18 PM
Moderators: I expect to be able to maintain an adult discussion regarding bolt related issues without receiving direct personal attacks.

nmonteith
20/08/2010
12:27:45 PM
On 20/08/2010 hotgemini wrote:
>Moderators: I expect to be able to maintain an adult discussion regarding
>bolt related issues without receiving direct personal attacks.

Just hit the ignore user button if you don't like it.

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 87
There are 87 messages in this topic.

 

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