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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 2 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 87
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
All NSW (General) (General) (General)  

Author
Lindfield Rocks

MonkeyBoy
19/08/2010
1:01:14 PM
Thanks Adam - I just tried to add a google maps link in the Lindfield crag section but there is no box to do so. So I checked the areas in that crag and someone had already put a map point under the abseil wall link - I have amended the location notes in Area so this is noted. Not the best solution as really the areas are so close together it would be better to have the map under the crag.

rodw
19/08/2010
1:24:45 PM
Carrots are not as visually obtrusive as rings, but I think rings would be harder to vandalise or remove than a carrot. From memory lindfield top is blessed with alot of solid bare rock a ways back from the cliffs edge so you could put anchors a fair way back at various intervals and just leave the orig carrots as directionals to avoid a swing on top rope if needed?

Rings and carrots are no harder to install than each other...just depends on what you can source...with carrots normally being easier to get.

The area is frequented by alot of abseilers too and having the anchors back far enough away from the edge might encourage them to use them rather than the trees which have always taken a beating.

ajfclark
19/08/2010
1:28:10 PM
Do abseilers carry bolt plates?

rodw
19/08/2010
1:36:48 PM
Not sure, dont care tbh :)..but doubt it...just mentioning another use for the bolts furthur back.

ajfclark
19/08/2010
1:38:16 PM
If you want the abseilers to use them rather than the trees wouldn't rings be more appropriate than carrots?

rodw
19/08/2010
1:39:45 PM
Agreed.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
19/08/2010
1:50:34 PM
On 19/08/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>Do abseilers carry bolt plates?


Some might.

You could ask this one wearing the helmet?












Heh, heh, heh.

kuu
19/08/2010
2:06:33 PM
On 19/08/2010 rodw wrote:
>Carrots are not as visually obtrusive as rings, but I think rings would
>be harder to vandalise or remove than a carrot. From memory lindfield top
>is blessed with alot of solid bare rock a ways back from the cliffs edge
>so you could put anchors a fair way back at various intervals and just
>leave the orig carrots as directionals to avoid a swing on top rope if
>needed?

Correct! Carrots are significantly less obtrusive than rings (or U Bolts) and remember Lindfield is NOT exclusively a climbing area. It is a multiple-user zone so there is reason to suggest climbers should limit their (visual) impact where possible.
>
>Rings and carrots are no harder to install than each other...just depends
>on what you can source...with carrots normally being easier to get.

Yes, and perhaps preferable in terms of visual impact as mentioned above.

>The area is frequented by alot of abseilers too and having the anchors
>back far enough away from the edge might encourage them to use them rather
>than the trees which have always taken a beating.

Quite a few of the trees, particularly above the rocks, have already succumbed. This is probably more to do with changes to drainage resulting from Council's modifications of the upslope oval, and to Climate Change, than climber's activities. Besides, as an abseiling destination Lindfield Rocks is pretty limited. A 5 metre descent is not much of an introduction to the activity so most abseiling groups will choose a location where they can progress "pupils" from nursery slopes to significantly longer descents. Anyway, to put things in perspective, this is not an abseiler's forum, it's for climbers!
psd
19/08/2010
2:32:18 PM
Carrots definitely a better choice for the top of lindfield. As kuu said plenty of non-climbers wandering around the top of those cliffs.

nmonteith
19/08/2010
2:43:13 PM
Get someone who knows what they are doing to install subtle well camouflaged ringbolts well recessed and far back from the cliff edge. They won't be any more visible then carrots and won't encourage people to rig dodgy setups when they don't have bolt plates. You certainly don't need two of them next to each other either - one every five metres (or more) apart is fine if they are setback well from the edge so you can still sling two of them. Carrot heads are also easily vandalized by hitting them with rocks/hammers and can be unscrewed.
TeeRex
19/08/2010
2:52:10 PM
>>Get someone who knows what they are doing to install subtle well camouflaged ringbolts well recessed and far back from the cliff edge.

Can you suggest anyone suitable? Plenty of willing hands on offer, including my own, just need someone with the skill and experience to pitch in.

rodw
19/08/2010
2:54:43 PM
I hear monty has sunk a bolt or two in his time :)
psd
19/08/2010
3:01:50 PM
Those carrots have been there for quite some time without being vandalised - Lindfield isn't exactly the roughest part of town.

I probably lack imagination but a hole in the rock big enough to fit a ringbolt and biner doesn't sound that subtle ...

nmonteith
19/08/2010
3:30:01 PM
On 19/08/2010 psd wrote:
>Those carrots have been there for quite some time without being vandalised
>- Lindfield isn't exactly the roughest part of town.

Well someone mentioned vandals further up the thread! :-)

>I probably lack imagination but a hole in the rock big enough to fit a
>ringbolt and biner doesn't sound that subtle ...

To the average non-climbing punter a carrot or a (well recessed) ringbolt are the same thing. It's just a bit of metal in the rock. To a climber it's the difference between having to remember the bolt plates (and knowing how to use them) or slinging a tree.

kuu
19/08/2010
3:41:10 PM
On 19/08/2010 nmonteith wrote:
>On 19/08/2010 psd wrote:
>>Those carrots have been there for quite some time without being vandalised
>>- Lindfield isn't exactly the roughest part of town.
>
>Well someone mentioned vandals further up the thread! :-)
>
>>I probably lack imagination but a hole in the rock big enough to fit
>a
>>ringbolt and biner doesn't sound that subtle ...
>
>To the average non-climbing punter a carrot or a (well recessed) ringbolt
>are the same thing. It's just a bit of metal in the rock. To a climber
>it's the difference between having to remember the bolt plates (and knowing
>how to use them) or slinging a tree.

Neil, with respect, to the normal non-climbing visitor to Lindfield Rocks, a carrot bolt is an object of curiosity (I.e. "what's that for?") whereas a ringbolt has "industrial" connotations. Keep in mind that this is not a National Park, so users do not have the opportunity to question or argue for the "rights" of climbers. Council is answerable ONLY to local ratepayers. Climbers, unless they live in the jurisdiction, don't realistically have a voice should an issue arise about the impacts of climbing at The Rocks.

I concede that if ringbolts were to be installed at Lindfield it would be desirable they be recessed to avoid/minimize the possibility that a punter might trip on one and inadvertently pitch over the cliff and suffer damage as a result. But natural 'depressions' rather than manufactured ones would obviously be preferable.

pmonks
19/08/2010
3:55:59 PM
On 19/08/2010 kuu wrote:
>Climbers, unless they live in the jurisdiction, don't realistically have
>a voice should an issue arise about the impacts of climbing at The Rocks.

+1 to what kuu said. Lindfield is important enough (and sensitive enough!) to keep any impacts (most importantly permanent ones like bolts) to an ABSOLUTE minimum. If the current batch of carrots are no longer considered safe, by all means let's replace them, but the visual impacts (the number, location and type of the replacement bolts) need to be especially carefully considered at Lindfield Rocks of all places.

Not to mention that history has shown that ring bolts at other popular Sydney bouldering areas (Queen's Park and the 2001 retrobolting at Earlwood spring immediately to mind) have not been tolerated. In other words, anyone intending to place ring bolts at Lindfield should expect to have them chopped pronto.

kuu
19/08/2010
4:30:59 PM
On 19/08/2010 pmonks wrote:
>On 19/08/2010 kuu wrote:
>>Climbers, unless they live in the jurisdiction, don't realistically have
>>a voice should an issue arise about the impacts of climbing at The Rocks.
>
>+1 to what kuu said. Lindfield is important enough (and sensitive enough!)
>to keep any impacts (most importantly permanent ones like bolts) to an
>ABSOLUTE minimum. If the current batch of carrots are no longer considered
>safe, by all means let's replace them, but the visual impacts (the number,
>location and type of the replacement bolts) need to be especially carefully
>considered at Lindfield Rocks of all places.
>
>Not to mention that history has shown that ring bolts at other popular
>Sydney bouldering areas (Queen's Park and the 2001 retrobolting at Earlwood
>spring immediately to mind) have not been tolerated. In other words, anyone
>intending to place ring bolts at Lindfield should expect to have them chopped
>pronto.

Thanks Peter, however I would like to suggest that Lindfield IS NOT essentially a bouldering area despite it's inclusion in Peter Balint's valuable guide. Some of the walls have OK landing areas if pads are appropriately placed, but many are quite dangerous and thus more appropriate for top roping. Hence the desirability (need?) for bolt anchors.

nmonteith
19/08/2010
4:48:36 PM
So if i placed 100 carrots all would be good in the world and everyone would be happy then? I'm confused with what the difference is? (p.s. i'm not about to go bolting at Lindfield - i live too far away)
hotgemini
19/08/2010
5:01:50 PM
As an outsider, it feels a lot like you guys are shopping for reasons to oppose rings.

IMHO the main reason old carrots have a reputation for a low visual profile is because most were mild steel and rapidly rusted to match the surrounding rock. Appropriately recessed and camouflaged, either a stainless steel glue-in carrot (SSGIC) or a ring provides a suitable low-profile anchor.

Personally if it were me I'd go the ringbolts for three reasons, firstly they allow use without needing a bolt plate, secondly they slightly harder to vandalise and thirdly I hate standing on bloody carrots, every time I go to point perp I stand on at least one rap bolt and end up with a hex-shaped bruise in my foot.

If they are to be carrots, I'd encourage you to make them 10mm 316, long (say 80-125mm), add additional notching and roughening to the shaft, grind back the tips of the hex head so all bolt plates will fit and as mentioned previously glue them in with an appropriate epoxy.

I wouldn't however, I'd go the rings. My first choice would be the fixe #727 but I do not believe there are any in the country. Next choice would be the fixe #541, you might have some luck sourcing these (first ask steve from climbing anchors, then if you don't have any luck try mountain equipment). Third choice would be fixe 014.

With care and attention in placing and camouflaging with a glue/dirt mix, they blend in so well that the issue you will face is climbers completely failing to notice their existence. If you'd like I'll grab some photos to demonstrate the point.

Again I'd like to re-emphasise that these anchors should be there for 25-50 years, so to some degree you've got to consider how much use lindfield will see between now and 2060 and design/specify appropriately.

-Adam.

kuu
19/08/2010
5:16:48 PM
On 19/08/2010 nmonteith wrote:
>So if i placed 100 carrots all would be good in the world and everyone
>would be happy then? I'm confused with what the difference is? (p.s. i'm
>not about to go bolting at Lindfield - i live too far away)

Neil, that's being simplistic and silly! As you increase the numbers you increase the impact, it stands to reason. I would have thought by now you would have understood that, in sensitive areas, carrots (I'm talking here about S/S glue-in versions) have much lower visual impact. 100 rings or 100 u-bolts will always be more visible, and offensive to non-climbers, than 100 carrots. Why, as climbers, do we feel we have to dominate and ignore other people's sensitivity?

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