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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 78
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
VIC Southwest You Yangs (General) (General) [ You Yangs Guide | Images ] 

Author
You Yangs - Flinders Peak Bolting?
dalai
4/08/2010
5:02:55 PM
On 4/08/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>That said, where we were worried, we rapped in, put the plates and draw
>on on the way past and stick clipped the first draw.

And continuing with this theme since you approach from above can easily add some long slings on the bolts to offer an additional mid point clip if the run out is a concern.

Sorry Chris, I still don't see it. Just because a climb is protected by bolts does not mean it is a sport route. Carrots, no loweroff, granite slab...
JDB
4/08/2010
5:03:58 PM

>The weather was lovely, sunny with almost no wind. But that's not the
>reason for posting.

Because I was pessiMISTic about the weather report I MIST out on the opportunity of taking a ground fall !! I've got enough 'sore bits' that a full body plaster cast might have helped my pre-existing ailments.
(The forecast was for morning mist and afternoon showers)






nmonteith
4/08/2010
5:12:48 PM
On 4/08/2010 JDB wrote:
>(The forecast was for morning mist and afternoon showers)

The You Yangs is always a weather window!

nmonteith
4/08/2010
5:14:04 PM
On 4/08/2010 dalai wrote:
>Sorry Chris, I still don't see it. Just because a climb is protected by
>bolts does not mean it is a sport route. Carrots, no loweroff, granite
>slab...

Totally agree Dalai. There would be less than 5 routes at the You Yangs that I would consider to be 'sport routes'.

..::- Chris -::..
4/08/2010
5:19:47 PM
On 4/08/2010 dalai wrote:
>Sorry Chris, I still don't see it. Just because a climb is protected by
>bolts does not mean it is a sport route. Carrots, no loweroff, granite
>slab...

No loweroff is the difference...

I didn't think the angle of rock or type of rock made the route sport or non sport. Sport for me is not requiring anything apart your basic needs Quick Draws, bolt plates and rope etc.

Anyways I don't actually have a problem with these type of routes, if i'm in the mood i'll give it a go, if i'm not in the mood i'll find something "safer" to lead.....

If I was bolting a new route i would be bolting it so it's safe for whoever wants to lead it, not overbolted, not underbolted.... just right.... like goldielocks when she stole those new routes from those 3 bears... ; )




nmonteith
4/08/2010
5:59:25 PM
On 4/08/2010 ..::- Chris -::.. wrote:
>If I was bolting a new route i would be bolting it so it's safe for whoever
>wants to lead it, not overbolted, not underbolted.... just right.... like
>goldielocks when she stole those new routes from those 3 bears... ; )

But what feels 'right' is very subjective. For example when i climbed at Kangaroo Point as a kid I used to think the old carroted mixed routes were over-bolted (I was comparing them to other crags I climbed at such as Frog and old-school Glasshouse Mtns). Now, the very same routes are considered 'bold' by locals who compare them to all the new ringbolted routes which have twice the bolts. And now when I go and climb the old KP routes of my youth I now think they are runout - because my current main diet is mass-bolted Nowra and the Bluies. It's all in the mind!
gfdonc
4/08/2010
6:02:46 PM
On 4/08/2010 rolsen1 wrote:
>Isn't a quetion of ethics yours? or am I confused.

Yep. What was your point exactly?
The only groundfall potential there is on getting to the first bolt (which I admit scares some people, although it's still jump-able). Otherwise you're covered - yes the bolts are spaced out but not likely to cause a grounder. My point is that by comparison the FP routes are sparsely or poorly bolted (the first bolt on Tewkesbury could have been higher to avoid the groundfall).

On 4/08/2010 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>If you don't want to risk the potential ground fall, then don't do that
>route. Go do another one.

Nice. Could you perhaps post a plaque at the bottom then advising there is ground fall potential? I did not realise when I started up it what I was getting into - I don't recall any such warning in the guide. Those carrot heads can be hard to spot from below - I was hoping to find another one.
dalai
4/08/2010
6:17:56 PM
On 4/08/2010 gfdonc wrote:
> I did not realise when I started up it what
>I was getting into - I don't recall any such warning in the guide.

The guide listing only a couple of bolts for the 20-25 metres didn't give you a clue?

Does the guide need to spell it out? I am pretty sure many routes even with closer spaced bolts could still dish out a groundfall. Do we provide a warning before each route description or just rely on the Warning at the front of the guide that climbing is dangerous...
armstp
4/08/2010
6:29:05 PM
Pretty much all of those routes named at the start of this thread are mine. We bolted the routes very incompetently with a hand drill. Taking about an hour or more per bolt. Placing the bolts was such hard work we placed the absolute minimum we thought we would need to get up the routes. Due to some strange outmoded attitudes we had at the time we didnít top rope the routes before leading them but sort of guessed where we thought the hard bits would be and placed the bolts there before leading the first ascents Ďon sightí. The Youies was such a back water in those days that we never really expected that anybody would repeat these routes. I would be happy to see another bolt added to Tewkesbury. I originally graded it 17 to take into account the trying nature of the lead but guidebook writers decided otherwise at some time [despite there being many much easier routes graded 17 in the Youies]. These days I have a power drill, top rope before bolting to work out the hard bits and place more and better bolts.

cruze
4/08/2010
6:56:51 PM
What a refreshing voice of reason.

From my experience most lower grade granite routes were put up with minimal bolts not because the first climbers wanted to create a bold low grade headspace route, but because they didn't have the time, energy or finances to bolt the route like the ones at their limits.

Despite the number of times Chockstone has discussed the lack of bolts on low grade granite routes, it never ceases to amaze me how many times far stronger climbers rant about how easy it was for them to climb and argue not to reduce a climb to the lowest common denominator.

And yet as the grades creep upwards so do the number of bolts per route. Hypocrisy.
dalai
4/08/2010
10:01:17 PM
You Yangs for 95% of the routes can be accessed from the top and top roped for those not willing to lead the routes. There is already enough steel sunk into the You Yangs pebbles...

Having placed many bolts in the first years by hand, off course your main reasoning for adding only enough bolts that you feel the route can be done with as its hard, tiring and very slow work!

If I'm included in your strong climbers, I'm anything but...Blown elbows back in 98 and minimal training to avoid flaring up the elbows again since and irregular outdoor bouldering on the local blocks and no time on ropes. My leads on these routes were years after my last time on a rope so didn't have my leaders head but still found these routes okay.

As for hypocrisy, even my harder bolted routes on granite were not more heavily bolted than the my easier routes. Even with the Ryobi, I tried to make my routes as safe as reasonably possible but without over bolting. I have also gone back and added bolts to FA's I've led without, so you can see I am not against bolts being added on a case by case basis if I think it neccessary...
gfdonc
4/08/2010
11:03:02 PM
I'm happy the first ascensionist has weighed in. In general I agree that what they say, goes.

I also want to clarify I personally did't need extra bolts in those routes. I led them all without too many complaints - concerns perhaps - and the only one I baulked at was Burn Off that said "poor protection" and clearly had no gear at all. I gave up soloing a few years back, thanks.

My post is to represent the interests of the grade 14-16 leader, out for a hopefully pleasant and safe Sunday afternoon climbing.
rolsen1
4/08/2010
11:17:45 PM
On 4/08/2010 gfdonc wrote:
>On 4/08/2010 rolsen1 wrote:
>>Isn't a quetion of ethics yours? or am I confused.
>
>Yep. What was your point exactly?

Just as you've said, question of ethics and tewkesbury both have short sections where you wouldn't want to fall off. No biggie.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
5/08/2010
10:30:03 AM
Aahh, ye olde bolte dybate...
~> ... after finding the ancient stirring stick, wades in irreverently!

gfdonc
>And one of the other routes labelled "poor protection" actually has no runners at all as far as I could see. "Poor" is apparently a relative term.

... though good for a sandbag if people donít use their eyes as you did.
Also is relative to first ascentionist ability and intention too!

&
gfdonc
>Good point - but I don't mind bold slabs. Some headspace practice is good. >However, its the groundfall bit that tends to detract from the experience. >In other words there is a sensible limit to boldness, and FP doesn't make it below that line IMHO. >What is the point in calling a 20m+ grade 14/15 a route if it has no runners at all?


If I was to free-solo as a first ascent climb, and claim it as that in a guidebook, does that make it a non-route?



dalai
>bolting down to the lowest common denominator...

Coupled with,

nmonteith
>They just felt the usual runout granite slabs - no worse than half the routes at Buffalo and other Vic granite areas. I wouldn't like to see bolts added to these routes. I also reckon a 'ground fall' on a very low angled slab is a totally different proposition to decking from something steep.

Tripled with,

dalai
>Bolted Granite slab does not equal Sport route...

Hmm. What about the contentious (at the time / ongoing?), climbs (Question of ethics, Fundamental difference of Opinion, No ego, etc), at Mackeys Lookout area of Mt Buffalo?

A grey area of consumer friendliness!





..::- Chris -::..

>Why are slabs in general more run out than overhung routes.... I'd rather take a whipper on a steep route than a slab.... never really understood this logic of long runouts on something your most likely to roll down as apposed to a nice clean fresh air fall on a steep route.....

>I must admit it is nice when you overcome a climb, I onsighted Speed boat wankers (no big deal for most) but for me from the ground everytime i looked at this route i thought was a little under bolted, but once i got on it, i realized there were plenty of bolts when needed etc and it wasn't nearly as bad as i thought it would be....

>It's "usually" the case with these type of routes (bolts when you need them) (in my experience anyways)

~> You have answered your own question quite well, in my opinion! ☺


..::- Chris -::..
>But if a "granite slab" or any route has 5 bolts in 30 metres of climbing with no gear available between bolts then this is by definition a sport route as no gear is required or available....
& later
>I didn't think the angle of rock or type of rock made the route sport or non sport. Sport for me is not requiring anything apart your basic needs Quick Draws, bolt plates and rope etc.

I think your definition fits my old fashioned perspective, ie sport routes are those requiring only minimal gear (eg quickdraws), whether they be slab or otherwise.

dalai
>Sorry Chris, I still don't see it. Just because a climb is protected by bolts does not mean it is a sport route. Carrots, no loweroff, granite slab...

My, havenít the sport brigade come a long way now!
;-)
~> Not having to finagle those nasty brackety things! Having extra goodies at the top to make themselves feel safe to get off, ... what?; ... irrespective of the fact that they may have dogged every bolt to get there in the first place, and could have lowered off any of the earlier ones if they became too tired? ;-)
... or indeed walk off many of the routes at this location once topped out!
ODHisgonnahaveafielddaywiththisthreadhehhehheh!...

gfdonc
>Those carrot heads can be hard to spot from below - I was hoping to find another one.

dalai responds
>Does the guide need to spell it out?

That helps, ... but what happened to good old fashioned common sense, ie if you look up and canít see what you like, then maybe move on and look for another route, or consider changing ascent style to that of toprope or solo?




armstp
>we placed the absolute minimum [bolts] we thought we would need to get up the routes

~> A good ethic in its own right!!!, and I wouldnít apologise for whether it was hard to do or not, as that is secondary to a legitimate climbing style that you and your partner obviously preferred!

>I would be happy to see another bolt added to Tewkesbury. I originally graded it 17 to take into account the trying nature of the lead but guidebook writers decided otherwise at some time [despite there being many much easier routes graded 17 in the Youies].

You did the right thing by the Ewbank Grading System. Maybe the guidebook revision was done by a new generation sportclimber?
Hehx chortle 3
dalai
5/08/2010
10:31:29 AM
On 4/08/2010 gfdonc wrote:
>My post is to represent the interests of the grade 14-16 leader, out for
>a hopefully pleasant and safe Sunday afternoon climbing.

Given Tewksbury celebrated its 25th anniversary last April and people have managed okay in that time, I still don't see the need to retrobolt these climbs...

On 5/08/2010 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>dalai responds
>>Does the guide need to spell it out?
>
>That helps, ... but what happened to good old fashioned common sense,
>ie if you look up and canít see what you like, then maybe move on and look
>for another route, or consider changing ascent style to that of toprope
>or solo?

The guide does provide the information. 2 BR 25m route... The guide mentions if there is any potential wiggly placements and there are none comments about wiggly gear for this route = 2 bolts is all there is...

nmonteith
5/08/2010
10:42:48 AM
On 5/08/2010 dalai wrote:
>Given Tewksbury celebrated its 25th anniversary last April and people
>have managed okay in that time, I still don't see the need to retrobolt
>these climbs...

Just checked the ascent records on thecrag.com and this route has had 39 ascents in its current form (that's a lot). A quick flick through who climbed it shows a wide variety of people, most who I wouldn't consider to be hard core bold leaders.
gfdonc
5/08/2010
11:05:05 AM
On 5/08/2010 dalai wrote:

>The guide does provide the information. 2 BR 25m route... The guide mentions
>if there is any potential wiggly placements and there are none comments
>about wiggly gear for this route = 2 bolts is all there is...

I checked the guide - you're right it does say that - but I think I recall three? I got up higher then almost overran a third bolt. Maybe I'm thinking of one of the other routes.

Eduardo Slabofvic
5/08/2010
11:15:28 AM
On 4/08/2010 dalai wrote:
>On 4/08/2010 gfdonc wrote:
>> I did not realise when I started up it what
>>I was getting into - I don't recall any such warning in the guide.
>
>The guide listing only a couple of bolts for the 20-25 metres didn't give
>you a clue?
>
>Does the guide need to spell it out? I am pretty sure many routes even
>with closer spaced bolts could still dish out a groundfall. Do we provide
>a warning before each route description or just rely on the Warning at
>the front of the guide that climbing is dangerous...

...... and I guess retreating when you realise that your not prepared for the run out is somehow out of the question: or deciding for yourself in some way, shape, or form, what you are prepared to do and accepting that that is the way you will go about your climbing is also out of the question. Instead every single route on the planet has to be bolted to your own personal tastes and desires. How do you get to be in such a position? I certainly didn't have the chance to have a vote in that decision making process.

I'll gladly put a plaque at the bottom of the route if you want, but only after you've taken the big whip.
Estey
5/08/2010
11:28:31 AM
I've never climbed at the crag in question so I don't have an opinion on the routes mentioned in the OP. However more generally;

I recall a discussion at a meeting of my local climbing association about whether it was appropriate to retro some local slab climbs on the basis that nobody ever climbs them anymore. One wag from the audience noted that the best climbs on the crag were the ones with no gear. As always there are arguments for both sides.

Overbolting granite slabs actually defeats the purpose of climbing them. Technique, mind control, confidence, temperature and even courage play a part. If they take the time to put in a few miles on 2nd/TR then most climbers can safely progress to lead runout easy/moderate slabs. Most of them may even enjoy the experience more by building up to leading a route in a confident and controlled manner.

Its a fine line between common sense and destroying the route. I recently retroed a slab on the request of the first ascentionist. For context the route now has 4 bolts in 30m instead of 3. I copped a spray from one local climber because he had led it in the original state. Another much more accomplished climber told me I should have wacked 2 more in.

Ten years ago I would have argued that adding a bolt is never acceptable. As I get older I more inclined to say that as long as access and local ethics aren't threatened too much adding an extra bolt down low to reduce the risk of grounders actually makes a better climb.



nmonteith
5/08/2010
11:36:37 AM
Weirdly, just today I got an email asking for approval to add an extra bolt to one of my own (slab) routes I did 15 years ago on Tibrogargan. I gave them permission. When I bolted the route I snapped a drill-bit and couldn't finish the job - so it always had a big runout.

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