Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

Area	Location	Sub Location	Crag	Links
VIC Grampians	Southeast	Barbican Wall	(General)	[ Grampians Guide \| Images ]

Author

Barbican Wall route descriptions

armstp

19-May-2010
12:51:18 PM

I have just added all of the Barbican Wall routes to the ACA on line guide. I have tried to make this as comprehensive as possible but have come across mention of a couple of routes that I can’t find descriptions for. The Perfect Storm which is shown in an old diagram by Wade Stevens as taking the wall above Storm. And Peg Leg direct finish which is mentioned in the select guide without any other info. Does any one have details for these climbs?

armstp

19-May-2010
2:53:41 PM

I had been holding off and hoping that the VCC would start up something like the ACA site as a more "official" way of keeping comprehensive up to date records of cliffs that are unlikely to get covered by guidebooks in the near future - if ever again. But it doesn't seem to be happening so maybe the ACA is going to become the de-facto font of all climbing records. Not necessarily a bad thing but it has some of the problems that you get with info on Wikipedia. No editing, quality or accuracy control.

hotgemini

19-May-2010
3:07:48 PM

Phil,

Then taking that on board, what would you do to implement improved editing, quality and accuracy control?

On a few other route database related notes, one of the two acaq webmasters has told me that he aims to have the copyright page up tonight. Adopting the same Creative Commons Australia: Attribution, Share-alike 2.5 license as can be seen thesarvo.

Something I hope to achieve in the medium term (3-5 years) is for the ACAQ to put aside sufficient funds to more than cover the cost of hosting the route database from the interest alone, such that it should then be funded in perpetuity.

-Adam.

Wollemi

19-May-2010
3:08:43 PM

Bit digressional... To Armstp; I am a fan of Wikipedia - and there are frequently external links available at the end of each article to respected institutions. Accuracy control is assisted by the Discussion page for every article, and you can edit something yourself, should you believe in righting wrongs or validating data.

tskinner

19-May-2010
3:26:08 PM

On 19/05/2010 armstp wrote:
>I had been holding off and hoping that the VCC would start up something
>like the ACA site as a more "official" way of keeping comprehensive up
>to date records of cliffs that are unlikely to get covered by guidebooks
>in the near future - if ever again. But it doesn't seem to be happening
>so maybe the ACA is going to become the de-facto font of all climbing records.
> Not necessarily a bad thing but it has some of the problems that you
>get with info on Wikipedia. No editing, quality or accuracy control.

I'm sure our webmaster could probably give more information on this from a technical point of view, but I know this is something that we have discussed often and all feel it is something that is really important and would love to do. We even started putting something in place a little while ago - it still requires much work though to do the job properly One of the biggest issues with much of what we would like to do, especially with something like this, is volunteers. Someone to commit to the time to do it properly. All of the committee members are pretty much up to their eyeballs in club commitments already. Volunteers are not that easy to come by - I should know.
I agree - there are so many cliffs and areas out there that will never make it into the guide books - we'd be hauling around huge tomes otherwise(and the Araps guide is big enough as it is!) And there is a real risk of it disappearing. But to have a reference, a database of most of what is out there, old and new - would be great. One that has a standard, no frills documentation of routes. At least then the information that was originally provided could stay intact. If people wanted to reference it and record elsewhere, be it guide books or websites, adding and deleting, making it more user friendly - so be it. But the original would always be there. ACA route register is great and definately helping to maintain the recording of routes and areas and for much of the new stuff, it probably is the origina descriptionl. Anyway, think you get my drift- well I hope so.
Maybe a bit down the line, something I just described could go hand in hand with the ACA.

My 2c worth. I'm sure there are those more experienced than I at recording routes and the ins and outs of it. I just have a hoarders nature and hate for things to get lost.

Ramble over.

Tracey


rodw

19-May-2010
3:44:10 PM

ACA has pretty good accuracy control, not everyone can enter data and its noted who the original aurthor is.....and with comments via attached forum to note errors..inaccuracys can be easily fixed.

I think its a great resource and definately has the chance to become Australia default online guide.


nmonteith

19-May-2010
3:46:12 PM

I think the horse has already bolted - people have invested years into entering comprehensive info into the ACA database - a VCC version would be silly - just re-inventing the wheel. I for one won't be adding all that info into yet another database!

armstp

19-May-2010
5:11:43 PM

The ACA data base is an excellent resource. My comment about accuracy etc doesn’t imply that it is inaccurate, it merely makes the point that routes that are added are not checked so no one knows for sure what is accurate [there is of course always that disclaimer about any climbing info]. I would hope that this is not the case with printed club guides. Additionally when a new printed guide book comes out everyone buys it in a rush and quickly starts pointing out what is missing or wrong. However, I believe that people who have made the effort to put routes on the ACA site are likely to be very knowledgeable about the area they are inputting and the information accurate. Who else would bother?

My point with the VCC is that for years its guidebooks have been the comprehensive record of climbing in the State. In theory a guide book editor was selected for their knowledge of the particular climbing area being covered and the finished product accepted as definitive. But there is no requirement when adding or updating a cliff to ACA to add anything other than your favourite routes or your own new routes. If the VCC had such a site they could try to find people who would be responsible for maintaining a particular cliff or area and keeping it comprehensive. [And yes I would volunteer to do this for cliffs I know well].

OT - I agree with Wollemi that Wikipedia is a great resource particularly on more specialized topics. The sort of person who is going to put on a separate detailed article with photos for every Russian Armoured Car of WWII is probably the worlds leading expert in that area and you can trust what they are saying. As I said earlier, who else would bother?


jkane

19-May-2010
5:12:59 PM

As I said here http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=1&MessageID=76607 the original VCC concept was never to create a comprehensive route database. Just somewhere for folks to put NEW routes. Then in theory, it could be used everyone to get all the updates until the new printed guide comes out Also making the editor's job much easier when it comes to updating the guide.

It never quite got off the ground. As Tracey said, people just did not have the time.

I'm guessing that the ACA route descriptions don't normally mention the guide book(s) that the description already appears in.

[edit] - pretty much agree with everything that Phil posted while I was typing this.
> If the VCC had such a site they could try to find people who would be responsible for
> maintaining a particular cliff or area and keeping it comprehensive.
That was also part of the plan - although I would say accurate, not comprehensive for reasons mentioned above.


nmonteith

20-May-2010
9:41:04 AM

On 19/05/2010 jkane wrote:
>=76607 the original VCC concept was never to create a comprehensive route
>database. Just somewhere for folks to put NEW routes. Then in theory,
>it could be used everyone to get all the updates until the new printed
>guide comes out.

That implies that a printed guide will come out in the near future! Using the Victoria Ranges as an example - there hasn't been a comprehensive guide to that area since..... 1992ish? And that one is out of print so tough luck if you actually want to find the original descriptions. So a list of new routes isn't that useful really. You might as well have an online system that contains all the routes - and if you want to find out what is new just do a date search.


ajfclark

20-May-2010
9:46:13 AM

I'm pretty sure there's still some vic ranges guides around... I bought one around Easter and the update... Mind you Ben did say one of the books I bought was one of the last two. Maybe it was that one? There's still a copy in Bogong if anyone is after one...

OSP

20-May-2010
9:59:54 AM

On 20/05/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>I'm pretty sure there's still some vic ranges guides around... I bought
>one around Easter and the update... Mind you Ben did say one of the books
>I bought was one of the last two. Maybe it was that one? There's still
>a copy in Bogong if anyone is after one...

There's still plenty,plenty here

kieranl

20-May-2010
10:24:02 AM

On 20/05/2010 OSP wrote:
>There's still plenty,plenty here
The VCC did over-estimate the market for that one. I was only the editor - not my fault.
I think that there's still a place for print guides but what they will have to do is take the routes in the ACA database and add value (shoot me for using this term). Maybe that is in the form of high-information Select guides. The quid pro quo would be that the writer would update the ACA descriptions with what they find.
What would be good with the ACA site, something I have said before, is to maintain an version history to allow people to see the changes that have been made and to allow the rollback of changes. This would give some comeback in the event of some malicious route-hacking without requiring a database restore. That's a reasonably big ask I know.


ajfclark

20-May-2010
10:40:13 AM

On 20/05/2010 kieranl wrote:
>This would give some comeback in the event of some malicious route-hacking without requiring a database restore. That's a reasonably big ask I know.

If the site had started from a standard wiki based package, it would already be a feature.


nmonteith

20-May-2010
11:03:29 AM

On 20/05/2010 kieranl wrote:
>The VCC did over-estimate the market for that one.

The main problem with that guide is that almost none of the crags featured are popular in modern times. It's missing - The Gallery, Muline, Eureka, Lost World, most of the good stuff at Red Rocks, Millennium, Crystal Palace and most of the good routes at Gilhams - the list goes on. It's so out of date its laughable! With the paper update from the mid 90s it's sort of usable - but i hate having two bits of info and trying to work out how they fit together. Much better to have one source.

armstp

20-May-2010
11:57:30 AM

Keiran’s point is a good one. I am not sure what the VCC policy is on future guides but I think that there is little market for complete guides to some areas. There are scores of small cliffs and hundreds of climbs in the Mt William range alone that are of interest to local climbers, and those who spend a lot of time in the Grampians and have worked their way thru’ the classics, but of little interest to the casual visitor who is likely to be using a select guide. These cliffs are probably best covered by an on line guide and the ACA site is there already to serve that function. The question is whether this can be formalised at some level with the VCC.

20-May-2010
1:14:12 PM

My main concern is the preservation of the original write ups. They can often provide a clue as to where a climb starts from, or where it really goes. I'm currently updating the NW Vic guide and there were a couple of routes at Wabbit Wocks where the descriptions didn't make sense, but going back to the original write ups resolved the issue.

There are routes in the Cathedral Ranges that have had their original alignments altered to make for a "more direct, better climb" (haven't they Glenn?) and therefore their original history has been irrevocably lost (except by us old farts with the original guides). The Tempest/Smith guide to the Eastern Districts came out over 20 years ago so many people will only know those old routes by their "current" descriptions.

I like the idea of the original write up being preserved in an inviolate environment and then all "improvements" being traceable.

Years ago when I was Argus editor someone wrote up a variant on an existing climb (from a select guide) that turned out to be where the original route went. If you have to rely on us grey beards as the repository of climbing history then what happens when we cark it? How much history was lost when Chris Baxter died?

I'd rather sit down with a hard copy guide and flick through it and let the eyes pick out something that sounds interesting (or unusual, or long, or put up by someone that I know, or ...) than do a sort on grades or stars or dates. Sifting through electronic data won't bring up a no star climb that boasts considerable exposure or a pitch that is adequately protected by slings or offers a good view of some desperate that you are aspiring to.

Looking through Rock and seeing a picture of a particular climb in a part of the Grampians that you haven't been to before may lead you to do a search of ACA but it was hard copy that led you to make that search.

Of course all these things are do-able, you just have to work out a list of searchable items (length, exposure rating, gear lists, style, etc) and apply it to each pitch of a climb. And I can tell you, that would put me off guide book editing for good.

As an aside, I think that having everything in electronic form and searchable leads to a dumbing down. When searching books, magazines, journals for information and articles you often come across other information that is of interest to you, either relevant to your current search or one of your other fields of interest. A search of a data base won't bring up that other information.

kieranl

20-May-2010
2:09:43 PM

Original source material is where I see journals/newsletters like Argus. These are where the original material supplied by the author are least likely to be modified significantly by an editor. That said I have seen some doozies here too; isolated instances where an editor has thought that they knew better, typos, cut and paste errors.
That's why I'd like to see all new routes in Vic go to Argus. Put it into ACA but then send a copy to Argus.

armstp

20-May-2010
3:46:42 PM

It’s interesting that until BA mentioned that you could search for climbs on the ACA data base I had no idea you could do this. And now I do know I can’t say that I have any urge to do so. Being a Luddite I use it like I would a hard copy guide book. Go to a cliff, scroll down though the routes for things that interest me looking at grades, stars, first ascent details, comments etc. With cliff photos included for a lot of areas [and some climbing photos] I can get inspired to go and have a look at areas I would not other wise have bothered with. Just like with a hard copy guide.

I agree that all original write ups for Victorian routes should be sent to the VCC for inclusion in Argus.


ajfclark

20-May-2010
4:05:24 PM

Searchable is a relative thing. I find the ACA site hard to search because I never know if what I'm looking for is a wall, crag, subarea, area, region, subregion, etc.

The thing I find most confusing about this separation is that from my (nerdy past life as a DBA) point of view, they are all instances of a more generic parent class as they all have the same properties but you can't search all of them at once for a phrase. This is particularly confusing with areas like dreamtime wall, which is a crag in the database not a wall.

Also I can't seem to search for routes with grades between two values. If you look for everything under 20 you'll get a whole bunch of ungraded projects.

There are 27 messages in this topic.