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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 46
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
VIC Grampians (General) (General) (General) [ Grampians Guide | Images ] 

Author
Beta on Passport to Insanity?

nmonteith
27/08/2003
11:09:44 AM
Give me a date and we can try and arrange it.

The Blond Gecko
27/08/2003
12:35:54 PM
Nothing firm yet, but I was thinking maybe the 11th and 12th of October, or a week either side of that.
Onsight
28/08/2003
3:14:32 PM
Normally I'm all for adding rap stations at places like this - in general there should be a lot more of them in the around the place... but in this particular instance I don't agree with adding one down the chasm (although Iím open to being convinced). As I explained in my earlier post it's pretty easy to set up the Tyrolean and, really, surely this is a big part of the adventure for those who want to do the whole route??? Otherwise you can just back clean the second pitch or rap off from the ledge above as Neil did (Neil, what anchors did you use there?). The Tyrolean is great fun! I've set it up twice trying to access the summit block which Passport climbs, and while this is the other was from which you'd approach it if you'd climbed the route, I don't foresee toooo many problems if you've just managed to get up Passport (or you can take Neilís suggestion and set it up the day before). All you need to do is lower a climber about six meters or so down the chasm until they can swing across to the other side, and then they climb out. I'll try and post a photo of the Tyrolean so you can see the situation...

I'm not too strenuously resisting this if you guys want to do the work, but it'd be a lot of work and I really don't see it as necessary. Surely there are many more important places that need some rap anchors fixed?

Simon

nmonteith
28/08/2003
3:22:38 PM
I have to say i agree with Simon. The climb doesn't exactly get 30 ascents a week! We rapped off a collection of manky wires which had a fixed rope attached ot them from someones abortred attemtp to rap off. Their ropes were stuck around to the right of the roof and disappeared into a crack. I used the first 5m of their ropes to rap down to the lip - then set my double ropes from their ropes. It was scary as f%^k in the middle of the night without a headtorch. I had to feel my knots/biners to make sure they were done up correctly. In fact it was one of the most gripping clibming experiances of my life! My advice - don't attempt this route in mid winter! I am not sure what you woudl have to work with to get down under the roof without the manky fixed ropes.

kieranl
29/08/2003
11:25:16 PM
The chasm descent was the original descent from Passport. I was suggesting that this be given solid anchors. The tyrolean was not used on the first ascent and the implication is that it has to be set up in advance.
The stuff I am reading in this thread, including from Neil Montieth, is that people are starting to realise that Passport is a fairly serious climb. It's not very long (3 pitches) but it is very exposed to weather and wind and descent is difficult.
It is hard to climb a roof this big and you are very exposed to weather changes; don't take it lightly.
NMcKinnon
30/08/2003
10:51:39 AM
I don't support the placement of bolted anchors on the Passport buttress! I don't understand the neccessity. Anyone competent enough to top-out this route should have the planning and rope skills necessary to get off using existing natural protection or a pre-set tyrolean.

Placing a half-way anchor down in the chasm may make some sense. But a bolt anchor on the top of the pinnacle is ridiculous. There are obvious natural bollards.

Neil - please do NOT use MY drill for this purpose.

Stop trying to tame all the wild places. You can climb in the gym if you want convienience.
kieranl
30/08/2003
10:15:39 PM
Nick,
thanks for that info. From talking to Noddy today I gather that the bollard you are using for the tyrolean is the bollard that Noddy and Joe used for the first anchor on their descent after the first ascent of Passport.
Noddy and Joe went ground up to top and then had to find a way off. Their first abseil was off the large bollard then they had to scramble down the chasm for a way before they found an anchor (they were using 46m rather than 50m ropes). The second abseil was off a very dodgy blade.
Noddy is very supportive of putting solid abseil anchors on that descent. He's offered to come along and help to place the anchors.
What bothers us is the reports of abseil ropes tangled in trees and abseil tat left hanging.
Nick, what I am talking about is making the original abseil descent safe. Noddy totally agrees with it and is happy to help do it. I am not about changing the character of the area. I think people doing Passport should finish the climb. You haven't done passport until you've reached the top.
People who want to aid the roof on Passport should probably do Ogive at Bundaleer first to work out how to aid a big roof.
regards
Kieran
kieranl
2/09/2003
10:16:22 PM
Simon's view is great if you are taking photos. What I was proposing is to make the original descent safe.
The tyrolean was not used on the first ascent. The tyrolean adds complexity.
If the chasm abseil was safe, people could rock up to the base of Passport do the climb in whatever style they chose and have the original abseil descent available.
The first ascent of Passport used the chasm as the descent. Why should people have to set up a tyrolean?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
3/09/2003
5:10:35 PM
On 2/09/2003 kieranl wrote:
>do the climb in whatever style they chose and have the original abseil
>descent available.
>The first ascent of Passport used the chasm as the descent. Why should
>people have to set up a tyrolean?

On 30/08/03 Kieranl wrote:
>Noddy and Joe went ground up to top and then had to find a way off. Their first abseil was off the large bollard then they had to scramble down the chasm for a way before they found an anchor (they were using 46m rather than 50m ropes). The second abseil was off a very dodgy blade

Perhaps the answer is that no-one (hopefully) places dodgy blades these days?

I have not done this climb (yet, but it is on my wishlist). I have mentioned elsewhere in Chockstone (bolting thread) that it would be good to keep bolt-free areas bolt free.
Not knowing if this is the case for this location means my opinions are probably on 'thin ice', however if Noddy is prepared to have the descent anchor in the chasm altered (bolted), then I can respect that on the basis he was one of the 1st ascentionists; ... though sanitising climbs for the masses is not a path I would encourage.

Is the blade dodgy because of age? or the lack of a better placement location? Are backup options available? Changing a dodgy blade for a secure abseil station in a seldom visited chasm, with the blessing of 1st ascentionists is fair enough, because IMO it is not significantly altering the nature of the experience.

Another consideration (again I may be talking through my hat), ... If the "scramble down the chasm for a way" is particularly hazardous (dark after an epic? treacherous after rain?), before one locates the dodgy blade then maybe it just comes back to the common sense of having a decent descent anchor? ie abseiling Station to Station is one thing, but puting a hazardous scramble uneccessarily between Stations is not good sense.

Given a choice of descents I would choose the tyrolean as the adventure of it appeals more to me, ... besides the consequences of ab'ing off dodgy blades frightens me!
NMcKinnon
3/09/2003
8:21:37 PM
My point is that there was no bolts placed on the first ascent and the absiel was done on (shoddy) natural gear. Therefer adding a bolted anchor is against the style of the crag, the first ascent, and all subsequent ascents.

What is the necessity to make this descent 'safe'? We have scant few routes of this nature in Oz. Very few match it for seriousness. But if we sanitise routes like it, then where will local climbers train for more serious aid and mountain bigwalls.

In my mind, bolting a route like this, is equivalent to the mad proposal of shooting all the dingoes on Fraser Island. At least the bolting won't be as irreversible. I'll have to remember to pack the crow bar on my next trip to the Fortress.
kieranl
3/09/2003
10:51:03 PM
First, the dodgy abseil peg was dodgy because there was nothing else on offer. It was a poor blade peg and that's what they used. It held.
Nod's attitude, as I understand it, is that he wants people to be able to repeat his experience : you should be able to walk up to the foot of the route, climb it and descend.
The only thing that I have have been proposing (and Noddy has agreed with) is that abseil anchors should be solid.

I can't see what Nick's problem is with this. All this means are there are two solid anchors in a 100m descent; it doesn't make the descent "safe".

Nick, your post:
"In my mind, bolting a route like this, is equivalent to the mad proposal of shooting all the dingoes on Fraser Island"
suggests that I am talking of retro-bolting Passport. I am suggesting nothing of the sort.

All that I am suggesting, with the support of a first-acsentionist, is placing secure anchors on the original abseil descent.

Also, before you too hastefully pack your crow-bar, nothing has happened. Unlike the unwanted rap anhors on Oedipus Rex, people are actually being consulted.

I could do without the "equivalent to the mad proposal of shooting all the dingoes" stuff. That's totally out of proportion.

nmonteith
4/09/2003
9:01:33 AM
Kieran - have to read my post in the Grampians sections of the rebolting forum? - My concern is - as far as i know - that the Fortress area is completly bolt free. It would be great to keep it that way.
kieranl
4/09/2003
10:17:39 PM
I thought that bolts had been placed on the belay below the Passport roof well after the first ascent.Maybe those bolts have been removed.
Have the ropes in the trees been removed? That is a big issue to me.
In the end, Nod is happy to have the shitty peg anchor in the chasm replacd with a solid anchor. Doesn't that fit with the 'Re-Bolt Victoria" mission.

nmonteith
5/09/2003
8:50:09 AM
Part of the Rebolt Victoria policy is too come to a group consensus before i place any bolts. I certainly havn't had that for Passport!

If Kieth goes and places a bolt - i am sure no one will complain. I just thought it would make a nice change to have an area bolt free. My vauge memory is that the anchor under the roof is not bolts, but fixed hexes, wires ect with tatty slings.
kieranl
5/09/2003
10:07:17 PM
Neil, I feel a bit let down. You and your mates have been replacing lots of shitty gear and promoting "Rebolt Victoria" but now you're backing off on this one shitty abseil anchor in the chasm descent from Passport.
You sounded keen a week or two ago but you are not so keen now. Why the change in attitude? I'm not angry, just disappointed.
I will check out the chasm descent when I have time (don't hold your breath).
FYI even if the abseil peg in the chasm is replaced with bolt anchors, people may still have to solo for some distance between anchors.

phil_nev
6/09/2003
3:09:23 AM
As ive already said, i think the area should be kept bolt free. Nick im with you all the way, i can even lend u a crowbar.... ;)
joemor
6/09/2003
1:24:05 PM
kieran, i think neil seems not so keen because rebolt vic is about the vast majority agreeing on going ahead with the rebolting.... and there doesnt seem to be a unamemous sway either for or against.....
hardruss
6/09/2003
6:41:52 PM
I also climbed the first 2 pitches of PAssport, and agree genereallly with Neil's comments, particularly about the first pitch being very hard, exciting grade 20 off-width. It just keeps coming at you, and a single #4 Camalot tipped out simply isn't sufficient. Lucky I enjoy soloing.
As for bolting the descent chasm, it does sound unnecessary, surely there must be the possibility to continue with the current descent using a short tyrolean. If a party plans to be finishing in the dark, that must be considered in the plan of what gear to bring along, or appropriate retreat made as the climb progresses.
We also baled from the 2nd pitch ledge using slings equalised on nubbins backed up to a knot and nut in the crack in-situ from a previous party. Also into the high branches of the tree and rap again to ground, no real problem, maybe you'll need to leave a nut or two and some sling/cord to extend anchor over the edge, use your own judgement, that's what this sort of climbing is all about.
Personally I was looking forward to figuring out how/where to set up the tyrolean, although it sounds like it may be unneccessary, if one can lower into the chasm a little and climb the other side, surely the other person can also abseil then be belayed as they climb?
I vote NO BOLTS HERE PLEASE!

Rich
8/09/2003
10:05:37 AM
On 6/09/2003 hardruss wrote:
>We also baled from the 2nd pitch ledge using slings equalised on nubbins
>backed up to a knot and nut in the crack in-situ from a previous party.
>Also into the high branches of the tree and rap again to ground, no real
>problem, maybe you'll need to leave a nut or two and some sling/cord to
>extend anchor over the edge, use your own judgement, that's what this sort
>of climbing is all about.

Sounds great..
All this discarded gear sounds like it would be more of an eyesore than a couple of camo bolts. And the tyrolean sounds adventurous and I'd be keen on trying it for the fun of it but the rap just sounds dangerous and more hassle than its worth..
kieranl
8/09/2003
8:27:06 PM
Russ,
You have to set up the Tyrolean before you do the climb.
If you have to bail because of bad weather, odds are that you won't be able to get back to retrieve your tyrolean anchors.
If you had got to the top then there would have been two options open to you:
1) abseil into the chasm off the bollard that could have been used for the tyrolean. Then hope you can find a shitty 30-year old peg to abseil the last 50 metres. If you think that you can find a better anchor in that chasm than Noddy Lockwood and Joe Friend did then go for it. Noddy and Joe knew how to place gear. Nod aided the Passport roof on nuts when pegs would have been an easier option.
2) abseil down Ticket to Retirement to a thread and then abseil off this.
On balance, I'd rather leave a couple of discrete bolt anchors rather than leave lots of tat around the place.
I vote NO TAT at the FORTRESS
If you want to learn how to aid overhangs do Ogive at Bundaleer first. Don't try to learn it at the Fortress.

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There are 46 messages in this topic.

 

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