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Chockstone Forum - For Sale

Buy and Sell Used Climbing Gear Please do not post retail SPAM.

 Page 4 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 81
Author
BD Cams for Sale - morphed to gear markups.
citationx
7/11/2009
7:00:50 PM
I have a question for both the importers and retailers, i'm hoping they'll be relatively clearly answered.

To the importer, seth in this case (you're the target, since no other importers have piped up :-)), some questions.
How do you determine the "recommended retail price"? Do you set it? Does the brand company set it in AUD?
More importantly, what happens if retailers deviate from it? In all seriousness, is the RRP price to be charged by a retailer enforceable by some ACCC rules, or some other national body? Are you legally allowed to prosecute the retailers you supply if they unfairly capture the market by continually selling your distributed product below your RRP? (eg, a 15% off the whole year round)
As for freight costs, do you have distribution centres in eastern australia? again, since only sts seemed to respond: it was the case 4 years ago, do all STS products still get warehoused and distro'd from Perth? Would the freight costs reduce if american products were imported to an eastern state? Surely there would be a lower freight cost of importing to the eastern seaboard, and then onforwarding to retailers? surely more than 80-90% of stock is sold in the closer eastern states which, as far as i know, then means less costs to send to melbs, syd and brissie, the biggest markets? would this outweight the increase in land and storage costs of sydney or melbourne compared to perth? (perth property prices are apparently on par with eastern states - is there any difference?)
For both the importers and retailers (this too is a serious question - i guess it relates to the earlier point of "business planning"), does anyone actually do the economics 101 style calculations of supply/demand elasticity? Has anyone actually tried to model what the demand would be by lowering the RRP of products? would a 10% drop in prices be responsible for a greater than 10% increase in demand?
I think climbing products are relatively known in this country. there aren't many different brands in general that we trust i've found (when it comes to hardware), and if you have 4 or 5 different climbing partners in your life (are you using the best protection? ;-)), you're more than likely going to be exposed to each and every brand. i've found that personally my choices in gear change depending on using the end product in the field, not seeing an advertisement of sharma or caldwell or potter using the gear... (speaking of which, my current rack choice is slowly changing to a rival brand - mainly after using it on a trip to the field with a friend who uses that brand).
I'm not sure that some of these questions will be actually answered, they may not be in the interest of the company(ies) to answer them, but i'd be interested in hearing responses if they are answerable, and whether they affect any future actions..
Rock Climber
7/11/2009
7:53:21 PM
Steve again... :-)

Mattjr: Thanks for the clarification. It is appreciated. I must admit I prefer cookies and acronyms in my texts and emails. lol and :-) can make a big difference.

Patto: Great to talk to you. I am looking forward to catching-up...

CitationX: I cannot speak on behalf of S2S, however, their freight service is better than most Suppliers and generally overnight. Pretty much comes back to the Courier. As for costs, I will leave that for them.

RRP is as the name suggests: Recommended. To my knowledge, it is not illegal to sell below RRP. Heavy discounting can raise tension between Retailers, however, once again, it is not illegal.

I will have a go at the supply/demand question. There are only so many climbing ropes, shoes, karabiners and cams that you can sell in Australia. I am not really convinced that the total number sales of these products would increase if the RRP was lowered. Who ever has the cheapest price at any given time, wins a bigger slice of the same cake. Buying direct from overseas at the moment is winning a big slice. A reduction in prices may spike an increase in demand, however, at the end of the day, it still balances out to about the status quo IMO Once you have purchased, you are generally out of the market for a while. There are only so many climbers, schools and clubs out there. If the Sport increases in popluarity, then perhaps total sales will increase? Same customers still shopping for the best price.

I personally climb with gear that I like using. I am inspired by quality, performance and function. The advertising debate is complex and debatable. I think I will leave that to the Gruen Transfer to discuss ;-)

I could perhaps lower prices further, if I carried less brands and models? I may be able to negotiate a better buy price in exchange for larger orders? I would like to see some 101 style calculations of a choice verses sales/index? Would climbers accept less choices in exchange for cheaper prices? Happy to hear peoples thoughts about this...
I had better get back to my bookwork...


garbie
7/11/2009
9:55:05 PM
On 7/11/2009 citationx wrote:

>How do you determine the "recommended retail price"? Do you set it? Does
>the brand company set it in AUD?
Its in STS's catalogue, but I don't know how they set it.

>More importantly, what happens if retailers deviate from it? In all seriousness,
>is the RRP price to be charged by a retailer enforceable by some ACCC rules,
>or some other national body? Are you legally allowed to prosecute the retailers
>you supply if they unfairly capture the market by continually selling your
>distributed product below your RRP? (eg, a 15% off the whole year round)

not illegal, I'd have known by now if it was

>For both the importers and retailers (this too is a serious question -
>i guess it relates to the earlier point of "business planning"), does anyone
>actually do the economics 101 style calculations of supply/demand elasticity?
>Has anyone actually tried to model what the demand would be by lowering
>the RRP of products? would a 10% drop in prices be responsible for a greater
>than 10% increase in demand?
Its pretty inelastic I reckon - you want some gear, then you find the best price you can. Although I
know some people who'd buy some if they were on sale just to make their rack look better, and keep
the dream alive of actually using them.
patto
7/11/2009
10:36:19 PM
I'll answer these comments together.

On 7/11/2009 Rock Climber wrote:
>I will have a go at the supply/demand question. There are only so many
>climbing ropes, shoes, karabiners and cams that you can sell in Australia.
>I am not really convinced that the total number sales of these products
>would increase if the RRP was lowered.

On 7/11/2009 garbie wrote:
>Its pretty inelastic I reckon - you want some gear, then you find the
>best price you can.
>
True. Total demand is probably fairly inelastic. However domestic demand is evidently quite elastic. This is evidenced by the large numbers of people that seem to have obtained or a willing to obtain gear from overseas due to their significantly cheaper prices. If the domestic RRP was similar to the US RRP or within 10-15% then I don't think many of us would be making our overseas.

Thus demand for local purchases is quite elastic.


I am no monopoly distributer expert but if you were in charge of setting prices then you would be a fool not to have some idea about the elasticity of demand to your price changes. IMHO with the current amount of leakage from overseas purchases dropping the domestic RRP would likely increase profits to the distributor. I would guess that retailers do not have the room to lower prices significantly otherwise they would have done so.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/11/2009
8:54:03 AM
On 7/11/2009 Rock Climber wrote:
>I am prepared to walk a mile in your shoes, if you will walk a mile in mine.

On 4/11/2009 garbie wrote:
>I figure retailers and buyers have nothing to lose by having a debate about it -

On 6/11/2009 Seth wrote:
>However, I'm listening and take what people say on board

Brings to my mind that with this thread, we could be witnessing the beginning of a new dawn of how climbing gear is sold in this country.
~> Either a new mega-opoly ;-) ... or ... something more community orientated. ☺
Winston Smith
10/11/2009
1:18:04 PM
On 7/11/2009 Rock Climber wrote:
>Garbie, Winston Smith or Patto,
>
>I believe your comments best sum-up the views of the PRO buy OS brigade.
>Would this be a fair assumption? If so, I have a genuine offer for any
>of you. First in....
>
>Please come and work for/with me for up to a week. Casual Award rates
>for this type of work is $20.03 per hour. I am prepared to walk a mile
>in your shoes, if you will walk a mile in mine. My challenge for you is
>to convince me that “price” alone is the single most important criteria
>when buying climbing gear. I want to know if this philosophy extends to
>all aspects of life for you.

Come to Sydney and pay my Sydney mortgage for a month, look after my kid, work my job ... blah blah blah. Your offer is about as relevant to me as my life is to you. When I'm buying online price IS the single most important factor. If you consider efficiently despatching gear by post as service then that's where we differ in definitions.
>
>I am so out of touch with the style of thinking in your posts, that I
>would like to hear your thoughts on how you would run your own successful
>small business. Do you believe a small business has the right to be profitable,
>expand and employ more people? I am interested in your views on Manufacturing,
>Fair Trade, Monopolies, Import Tariffs, Advertising, Wages, Philanthropy
>and Business Plans. I will share my vision for Rock Hardware, if you are
>willing to listen? Would you be prepared to share your dreams and aspirations
>for your own future, with me? There may be a few surprises for us both?
>Confidentiality of course!

Once again, you're asking people to be willing to pay more for goods out of some altruistic impulse to help you with your "dreams and aspirations". I need gear to go climbing and I want it at a price. My primary motivation to buy is to satisfy my needs, not yours.
>
>Regards Steve.
>
>PS for Mattjr. Not sure what Seth drives, however, for the record.
>I drive a Subaru Forrester. I am nearly 47 years old and have worked between
>40 and 80 hours per week, for the last 30 years. I have worked hard for
>my car. I have also owned some pretty nasty cars in the past. We all have
>to crawl before we can walk. :-)

We all work hard and many of us drive sh*tboxes too.
>
Rock Climber
10/11/2009
4:46:31 PM
Good luck Rod! :-)

13% of my buiness is pack and send online, without assistance.
87% involves dialogue at some level and then pack and send.
It is time for me to withdraw from this discussion and return to work.

Steve.
plugngo
23/11/2009
3:38:43 PM
What happened to this thread? Fizzled. I was really looking forward to some kind of definitive explanation. Other than the apparent obvious of extortionate importer markups.

garbie
24/11/2009
11:20:32 AM
On 23/11/2009 plugngo wrote:
>What happened to this thread? Fizzled. I was really looking forward to
>some kind of definitive explanation. Other than the apparent obvious of
>extortionate importer markups.

I guess we're not going to hear from any more distributors, not much more they can say really. They'd
be hoping people don't read chockstone and don't shop online, & the issue dies down. While the dollar
stays high, I don't think it will.

I assume they're also busy telling suppliers to pressure those online stores to not sell overseas, and i
suppose they could ask those stores to "blacklist" those freight forwarders too if enough pressure was
applied. Would it be against the law (under US trade practices laws or whatever) to pressure someone
to do that? Any US lawyers out there reading this?

It would be good if people could post more examples of brands that are not available from O/S online
stores, so we can see if the list grows.

nmonteith
24/11/2009
11:45:16 AM
MEC (Mountain Equipment Co-op) in Canada don't export to Australia - Black Diamond, Wild Country, Petzel, DMM, FIXE, Metolious, Camp, 5.10, Sportiva, Madrock and Scarpa. Ten years ago you could mail-order all of these items.

nmonteith
24/11/2009
11:51:28 AM
From REI website
http://www.rei.com/help/intl_order.html#3

Restricted Brands and Products

* Products from the following vendors can be shipped only to U.S. addresses:
o A5
o Asics
o Atlas
o Atomic
o BOB Strollers
o Burton/Anon/R.E.D.
o Cascade Designs
o DC Snowboards (and boots)
o Gnu
o K2
o Lib
o Line
o Little Bear
o Madshus
o Merrell
o Morrow
o MSR
o Nutcase
o Petzl America
o Platypus
o Polar Electro
o Quiksilver/Roxy
o Ride
o Rome
o Rossignol
o Salomon
o SealLine
o The North Face
o Therm-a-Rest
o Tubbs
o Yakima
* Bell Sports products (Bell helmets and bike gear, Giro Helmets, Easton cycling components) are now restricted to shipping to addresses in North America (US Canada, Mexico).
* Products from Chariot Carriers, Motorola and Rudy Project Eyewear can be shipped only to addresses in the U.S. and Canada.
* Products from Beal, Bibler, Black Diamond, Fritschi and La Sportiva can be shipped only to the U.S., Canada and Mexico.
* Products from Patagonia/Water girl can be shipped only to addresses in the U.S. and Japan.
* Products from Thorlo Inc., Thule, and Ex-Officio Buzz-Off cannot be shipped to Canada.
* We are unable to ship the following items outside of the U.S.: bikes, boats, car-top carriers and hazardous items.
citationx
24/11/2009
12:06:52 PM
On 24/11/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>From REI website
>http://www.rei.com/help/intl_order.html#3
>
>Restricted Brands and Products
>

it'd be a much more concise page if they listed what products they WERE allowed to ship out of the country...
i wonder if the place i usually go to has that policy too. never had the issue before, especially for Beal and Black Diamond..

garbie
24/11/2009
12:15:38 PM
On 24/11/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>From REI website
>http://www.rei.com/help/intl_order.html#3
>
>Restricted Brands and Products
>
> * Products from the following vendors can be shipped only to U.S.
>addresses:

But they will ship all those brands to a US freight forwarder?
patto
3/12/2009
1:44:15 PM
Well maybe the movement in the AUD is having its affect!!!!

C4s for $99!

http://www.rockhardware.com.au/Order.asp?Action=Group&MainGroup=Camming Devices&Category=Black Diamond New Generation C4 Cams

After you take into account the cost of shipping stuff from the US this is starting to look more competitive...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
3/12/2009
1:59:58 PM
On 3/12/2009 patto wrote:
>Well maybe the movement in the AUD is having its affect!!!!
>
>C4s for $99!
>
(I edited my post to a more direct link than the original) ☺
http://www.rockhardware.com.au/Order.asp?Action=Group&MainGroup=Camming%20Devices&Category=Black%20Diamond%20New%20Generation%20C4%20Cams
>
>After you take into account the cost of shipping stuff from the US this is starting to look more competitive...

Re
>>Well maybe the movement in the AUD is having its affect!!!!

~> either that, or maybe rock hardware has revised its business strategy, or the suppliers have changed their tune behind the scenes?

I am also interested in generalised feedback on the 'walk a while in my shoes' experiment, when it is concluded.
Samuel
4/12/2009
10:26:54 AM
So, Did any of these cams actually ever get sold ?
citationx
15/09/2010
2:17:29 PM
Time for people to start looking at overseas purchases again since the locals are quick to increase, but slow to lower, prices on imported goods!
With the end of the summer season in the northern hemisphere you might pick up summer-end bargains, too!
http://www.smh.com.au/business/soaring-dollar-drives-shoppers-online-20100915-15bz4.html

IdratherbeclimbingM9
15/09/2010
2:33:55 PM
~> and today the Aussie dollar = 94 cents USA, which is equal highest it has been since the global financial crisis...
costa
15/09/2010
6:31:54 PM
so gearexpress etc will still ship here without forwarding from a third party?

Backcountry.com excludes most brands worth buying

mattjr
15/09/2010
7:57:08 PM
Yep, gear express, moosejaw(with some exceptions?). Or just use Shipito.com, I have used these guys a dozen times now.. they offer cheap(but slow) alternatives to the pricey U.P.S and U.S.P.S services and you don't have to worry about any brand exclusions.

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