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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 3 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60
Author
(Institutional) Racism in Climbing?

hangdog
5/04/2011
9:52:49 AM
>
>Does anyone know the rough ethnic breakdown of other thrill-seeking sports
>i.e. motocross, base jumping etc? Wonder if it's the same thing - a bunch
>of dumb caucasians trying to get a high out of being in danger of death.

There is a motocrosser called james "bubba" stewart who is a gentleman of colour. he started racing when he was 4.
i think he was the first black chappie to suceed at a high level.
i remember working with some aboriginal kids on a mountain bike trip and someone said to one of the fast kids. "you ride it like you stole it" . the other kids said that most of the time he had !! of course this comment from a whitey non social worker was considered unacceptable by the other mostly whitey social worker types.
something i have noted over many years working with koori kids is that a lot of them make really good climbers not just physically but often able to work out the moves quicker than others. they dont seem to have the attention span or really dont give a shit whether they do it or not.
PDRM
5/04/2011
10:04:30 AM
Not demographics, but interesting evidence based risk tables.

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Risk/sports.html


Eduardo Slabofvic
5/04/2011
10:30:11 AM
Consider, if you will, the link Australian culture (inclusive of all races) has with the beach. It is enjoyed by the masses as a recreational/leisure past time and is portrayed as a high ideal in the modern mythology of our nation. If you lived near the beach, it would be highly likely that you would partake in some form of beach/ocean activity.

I raise this point so as to compare and contrast the participation rates of my local community in climbing, which is very small if you only consider those born here and exclude those who have chosen to live here because of the climbing.

The culture of the local region is very WASPy and middle class, yet participation is very low, so you canít say that race (and all the attendant opportunity/exclusion that is implied in that word) is a causal factor of this low participation. So what is?

I donít know.

You need to also keep in mind that participation rates in Australia are still very low when compared to most other recognised activities, where as in Europe, with its long history of climbing within its culture (and its mostly crappy beaches), climbing (in its many forms) has much higher participation rates.

Chinese, Thai, and Malaysian people go climbing, even though rock climbing (separating it from mountaineering) is relatively new to those countries (and yes, mainly practiced by the middle class).

In closing, I reject racism as the causal factor in the non-participation of certain ethnicities, as the lack of organisation in climbing means the systematic exclusion of people would be difficult to achieve. I'm tending to agree with Mindtakerís conclusions

nmonteith
5/04/2011
11:11:07 AM
When we climb we go by foot for many kilometers on rough tracks, suffer in miserable wet and cold conditions, eat crap food cooked on a small camp stove and do hard physical and sometimes painful and dangerous work to get up the rock.

If you were born in Africa, or the Indian subcontinent (or poorest parts of Australia) chances are your normal daily life involves all of the above harshness just to stay alive. You certainly wouldn't see the attraction of doing that for 'fun'.

The difference is that for most of us middle class climbers this is an optional lifestyle choice - something we can escape from whenever we want. If it all gets too hard then you just load the tent in the car, drive home with the heater on listening to some tunes via the fish and chip shop to a queen sized bed and a fat pet cat.

As someone said above - climbing is also a very selfish sport. Most of the time you are far away from family and (non-climbing) friends. Most people don't just go climbing for an hour or so (like football) but usually spend days if not weeks, months or years away from home climbing. If your family (not just your wife and kids - but your extended family - grandparents, brothers and sisters) relies on you to support them for food and shelter than the luxury of doing a sport that involves you being away from home for long periods is one you couldn't afford.

White trash
5/04/2011
9:21:06 PM
On 1/04/2011 Kieranl wrote:
>Why so few indigenous Australian climbers?
>First reason probably because they are a small proportion of population
>(<5%).
>Second because probably lower socio-economic group as a whole.
>Then there are probably issues related to the racial history of Australia
>that reduce the already tiny potential pool

they are probably smarter to. it is a lot of effort to go to when other thrills come more easily and cheeply.

White trash
5/04/2011
9:28:36 PM
On 1/04/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>Climbers certainly are not racist. They are one of the most welcoming
>group of people I have ever dealt with - a truly international band of
>brothers. Unlike many sports there is very little nationalism amongst climbers.
>On a roadtrip its very typical to be mixing day to day with people from
>all around the world - and to be getting positive encouragement and invites
>to stay from everyone!

This is utter nonsense my good fellow.
You only need to take a look at some of the other climbing websites in Australia to see many examples of pure ozzie racism, even if you try to keep this site clean of such carrying on.
>
>One of the things I would like to see happen to make 'a better world'
>is for the outdoors to be introduced to the poorer inner city parts of
>our cities. I think for many urbanites the bush is a big scary place. Thus
>they don't put a real world value on it apart from a source of resources
>and material for documentaries. I think if everyone got a bush experience
>early on in life they might care about their impact a bit more...

You are living in cloud cuckoo lland if you think that will carry much weight with the great unwashed. They might be more receptive if you show them the colour of your money when they offer you some crack, instead of you offering them the bluies sandstone equivlent.

White trash
5/04/2011
9:33:05 PM
On 5/04/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>If you were born in Africa, or the Indian subcontinent (or poorest parts
>of Australia) chances are your normal daily life involves all of the above
>harshness just to stay alive. You certainly wouldn't see the attraction
>of doing that for 'fun'.

i saw a doco once where the natives were scaling cliffs to get honey from hives. they got to places that would make many rockclimbers proud.


>As someone said above - climbing is also a very selfish sport. Most of
>the time you are far away from family and (non-climbing) friends. Most
>people don't just go climbing for an hour or so (like football) but usually
>spend days if not weeks, months or years away from home climbing. If your
>family (not just your wife and kids - but your extended family - grandparents,
>brothers and sisters) relies on you to support them for food and shelter
>than the luxury of doing a sport that involves you being away from home
>for long periods is one you couldn't afford.

they did the honey gathering as a family activity and sold the excess to gain other things from the sale money.

White trash
5/04/2011
9:41:43 PM
On 5/04/2011 superstu wrote:
>The middle classes go climbing because getting scared somewhere high and
>remote is the only rational response to leading an irrational, pointless,
>work-consume-die middle class existence.
>
>However, as even climbing has been sanitised and homogenised, with reliable
>fix protection, easy access, glossy mags and tell-all guidebooks, the sport
>has merely melded into that humdrum pointless middle class consumerist
>existence too. There is no real escape.
>
unless in the words of the departed Elvis, you buy a gun, steal a car, then try to run, but don't get far, probably due to looking at pictures in the glossy magazine found on the car seat, or sniffing the empty maccas packet got off the floor for crumbs.

thread topic says (Institutional) Racism in Climbing?
what is it with many posts on this thread bleating on about protecting the poor, or ethnic, or even queenslanders? They are quite capable of looking after themselves and causing a revolution (including in climbing grades)if they wanted to.
Wendy
6/04/2011
7:28:23 AM
On 3/04/2011 Nooj wrote:
>So what's needed to open climbing up to more diversity? Assuming that people
>actually want this to happen. I don't think it's unfair to say that climbers
>can be an insular group.

Address the wider racism in society? And the massive disadvantage and gap in living conditions and health? Looking at just climbing is missing the main problem.
Wendy
6/04/2011
7:39:19 AM
On 5/04/2011 Mindtaker wrote:
It leads to another question that seems
>to be avoided (or the answer is assumed): what is so good about going climbing?

Aside from all the usual stuff about fun physical and mental challenges in beautiful places, hanging out with people you like, travel etc etc, climbing is also very good escapism. Particularly when you look at those who have become most involved in climbing, escape from various things about the wider world/people/their lives is a not insubstantial part of it. i freely admit to being one of these escapists.

From that line of thought, it would make sense for people in difficult circumstances to be attracted to climbing. It's generally a more functional form of escapism than drugs or alcohol, although WWS must need lots of escaping considering his combination of both. Hence it would seem that lack of opportunity, information and priorities would be the greater issues than potential disinterest. And it is also a matter of individual taste whether climbing grabs you or not. I personally can't understand why it wouldn't, but I have certainly taken out many many people who say, that was ok, but I wouldn't bother with doing it again.
Wendy
6/04/2011
7:41:59 AM
On 5/04/2011 PDRM wrote:
>Not demographics, but interesting evidence based risk tables.
>
>http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Risk/sports.html
>
>
what amuses me abuot this is that tennis is more hazardous than hand gliding and table tennis more likely to kill you than rockclimbing. What do people die of in table tennis? Head injury from ping pong ball? Table collapses on them?
Wendy
6/04/2011
7:47:28 AM
On 5/04/2011 Eduardo Slabofvic. wrote:
>Consider, if you will, the link Australian culture (inclusive of all races)
>has with the beach. It is enjoyed by the masses as a recreational/leisure
>past time and is portrayed as a high ideal in the modern mythology of our
>nation. If you lived near the beach, it would be highly likely that you
>would partake in some form of beach/ocean activity.

I'm not a very good Australian. I don't really like beaches. Sure, they look great (or at least they do when they are developed and packed), but hanging out on them involves sand everywhere and no shade, I'm scared of waves once they get over my head (which doesn't take much swell!), i'd much rather a beautiful swimming hole on a river. Someone should deport me.

>
>I raise this point so as to compare and contrast the participation rates
>of my local community in climbing, which is very small if you only consider
>those born here and exclude those who have chosen to live here because
>of the climbing.
>
>The culture of the local region is very WASPy and middle class, yet participation
>is very low, so you canít say that race (and all the attendant opportunity/exclusion
>that is implied in that word) is a causal factor of this low participation.
> So what is?
>
>I donít know.

We do know however that there's always a massive resistance to the new and different around here. They might just be holding onto the perception that climbing is new and different 50 years down the track. And the original anticlimbing attitude probably scared off many people who might otherwise have been more open to it.
>


IdratherbeclimbingM9
6/04/2011
10:30:59 PM
On 6/04/2011 Wendy wrote:
>Aside from all the usual stuff about fun physical and mental challenges
>in beautiful places, hanging out with people you like, travel etc etc,
>climbing is also very good escapism. Particularly when you look at those
>who have become most involved in climbing, escape from various things about
>the wider world/people/their lives is a not insubstantial part of it.
>i freely admit to being one of these escapists.
>
~> This begs the question,... what are you escaping from?

shortman
6/04/2011
10:44:25 PM
On 6/04/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 6/04/2011 Wendy wrote:
>>Aside from all the usual stuff about fun physical and mental challenges
>>in beautiful places, hanging out with people you like, travel etc etc,
>>climbing is also very good escapism. Particularly when you look at those
>>who have become most involved in climbing, escape from various things
>about
>>the wider world/people/their lives is a not insubstantial part of it.
>
>>i freely admit to being one of these escapists.
>>
>~> This begs the question,... what are you escaping from?

What do you think idratherBCM9?

Go Wendy!

Now here is a women who gets it.

Listen to you all friggin rantin about absolute shite! Finally someone adds some perspective!

Somewhere along the line I became racist towards white people. But u Wendy remind that not all hope is lost!
martym
7/04/2011
5:41:38 AM
On 6/04/2011 Wendy wrote:
>what amuses me abuot this is that tennis is more hazardous than hand gliding
>and table tennis more likely to kill you than rockclimbing. What do people
>die of in table tennis?

Wasn't this covered a while back? It was heart attacks in the end... proving that "hazardous" is a loose term.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/04/2012
9:51:13 PM
On 6/04/2011 shortman wrote:
>On 6/04/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>On 6/04/2011 Wendy wrote:
>>>Aside from all the usual stuff about fun physical and mental challenges
>>>in beautiful places, hanging out with people you like, travel etc etc,
>>>climbing is also very good escapism. Particularly when you look at
>those
>>>who have become most involved in climbing, escape from various things
>>about
>>>the wider world/people/their lives is a not insubstantial part of it.
>>
>>>i freely admit to being one of these escapists.
>>>
>>~> This begs the question,... what are you escaping from?
>
>What do you think idratherBCM9?
>
>Go Wendy!
>
>Now here is a women who gets it.
>
>Listen to you all friggin rantin about absolute shite! Finally someone
>adds some perspective!
>
>Somewhere along the line I became racist towards white people. But u Wendy
>remind that not all hope is lost!
>
Reality?

will5686
17/04/2012
8:39:46 PM
At the risk of getting back on topic... maybe the exception proves the rule.

Obe Carrion hung around with Sharma as a kid and was instrumental in getting bouldering off the ground (pun intended).

He even managed to 'escape' his shitty neighbourhood and such.
YetAnotherStu
17/04/2012
9:57:06 PM
Racism In the boardroom. Racism in the workplace. Racism in politics. Debate it if you can be bothered. But racism in climbing? Climbing is the toilet cleaning of the sporting world. No money, little recognition. Let's talk about racism in scrabble. I'm always slightly surprised and pleased that there are so many good Asian climbers at the crag. Maybe they are just skinny and strong. Or maybe it means that in a free country everyone can do what they like.

The good Dr
17/04/2012
10:14:23 PM
It is more about wealth and opportunity than racism. Stopping someone climbing on the base of race does not happen, someone not discovering climbing due to race based socio-economic conditions happens. This does not make climbing racist.

Climbau
18/04/2012
6:43:22 AM
Well said Doc.

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There are 60 messages in this topic.

 

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