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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 6 of 15. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 260 | 261 to 280 | 281 to 286
Author
Off-topic: Climbers who believe in Jesus
One Day Hero
5/02/2011
2:06:27 AM
On 5/02/2011 dave h. wrote:
>
>I'm not saying "it wasn't bad". I'm saying "it was bad, let's not quibble
>about how bad".

I reckon you were saying a bit more than that. You were saying "yeah, everyone reckons it was a living hell, but that's a total beat up..........now lets move on quickly before anyone calls bullshit on what I just said"

Its a neat trick to plant doubt without having to offer any backing. Holocaust denial folk use this one to good effect "look, some Jews were killed but 6 million is a gross exageration.........anyway, lets not quibble about exact numbers, what I was saying was....... (insert change of topic)"
>
>Do you think that's an appropriate standard of proof to apply to a historical
>question? Would you apply it to any other historical question? Epistemological
>consistency surely suggests that you should.

Well, I think that the level of evidence one requires from historical 'facts' should be proportional to how this fact affects one's life. I just take the official version of Cleopatra's place in history without question.

Now, if new evidence were discovered tomorrow which proved that she was not the queen of Egypt but a really good stripper instead..........I would be rather surprised, but it would affect my day to day life not a jot.

If new, irrefutable evidence surfaced that Jesus was not the son of god, but a high price rent-boy..........I suspect that your life would take a bit of a turn.
>
>And what's wrong with proof beyond reasonable doubt?

That is a very strange question coming from a Christian

Macciza
5/02/2011
2:52:41 AM
I believe in . . .



Don't care for god-ocracy . . .

dave h.
5/02/2011
3:20:35 AM

>I reckon you were saying a bit more than that. You were saying "yeah,
>everyone reckons it was a living hell, but it was a total beat up..........now
>lets move on quickly before anyone calls bullshit on what I just said"

Not at all.

Not everything that the church has done in the name of Christ was/is truly Christian. (That's what Ghandi was getting at when he said something along the lines of "I like your Christ, but not your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.") I can't (and personally don't feel the need to try to) defend everything in the church's history. As a consequence, I'm prepared to accept that the church killed people during the inquisitions. I don't think the church gets any mandate for administering capital punishment in the New Testament.



>>
>>Do you think that's an appropriate standard of proof to apply to a historical
>>question? Would you apply it to any other historical question? Epistemological
>>consistency surely suggests that you should.
>
>Well, I think that the level of evidence one requires from historical
>'facts' should be proportional to how this fact affects one's life.

Yeah fair enough. Philosophically I disagree. Practically I agree. No-one has time to investigate everything for themselves.

>If new, irrefutable evidence surfaced that Jesus was not the son of god,
>but a high price rent-boy..........I suspect that your life would take
>a bit of a turn.

Well that particular hypothetical would have some implications for the doctrine of the atonement. But yes, Paul says in Corinthians that if Jesus wasn't resurrected then Christians are "fuched" (as you might say - 'still in our sins' is Paul's term), and are "to be pitied above all people."

More to the point, we both know such evidence won't be forthcoming. Just as we both know that we won't suddenly get historical evidence which irrefutably demonstrates that Jesus was the son of God. I don't think historical evidence can ever be truly irrefutable. But I think it can point pretty strongly in one direction.

>>
>>And what's wrong with proof beyond reasonable doubt?
>
>That is a very strange question coming from a Christian

Why?
It's intellectually honest. I don't have an irrefutable argument demonstrating that Christianity is true. The same standard of proof is good enough to condemn people to life in jail. Should we get rid of it and demand a higher standard of proof in court?
One Day Hero
5/02/2011
4:06:23 AM
On 5/02/2011 dave h. wrote:
>
>Why?
>It's intellectually honest. I don't have an irrefutable argument demonstrating
>that Christianity is true. The same standard of proof is good enough to
>condemn people to life in jail. Should we get rid of it and demand a higher
>standard of proof in court?
>
Mate, if you can offer me proof beyond a reasonable doubt of the existence of your god.....you'll see me on the next pew over, most Sundays (if its awesome climbing weather, I'm still not coming)

Without definite proof we're left with statistics and Occam..........and that doesn't look very good for god as you know him.

By the way, would you mind bracketing your beliefs a bit (I'm not asking you to climb into a box.........might put you in one later though). I'm sure you'll understand that there are some folk standing under that broad banner with you who hold beliefs wildly different to your own.



One Day Hero's Questionaire to establish the relative loopyness of Christian beliefs-

Q1. The earth is approximately ______ years old (to the best of our knowledge)

a) 4 - 5 billion

b) 6 - 12 thousand

c) other (please specify)


Q2. Evolution of species by natural selection is

a) unguided by deity types, and proven beyond reasonable doubt

b) proven, and guided by the hand of god

c) still unproven and vigorously debated by experts of all religious convictions

d) a huge fraud, for which there is no conclusive proof

e) other, please specify

Q3. Jesus was ________

a) the actual, literal son of god, punched out through Mary's previously undamaged hymen

b) the son of Mary and some swinging dude, whose sperm was taken over by god to produce a son

c) a true prophet of god, but not his physical son

d) other, please specify

rodw
5/02/2011
8:14:37 AM
Lol ODH your on a role..that last post made me laugh.

Personally I think all religions are a bit silly....but if it helps ya get out of bed enjoy.

This week Im with the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster..why...because teh website makes a good read.....

http://www.venganza.org/

ajfclark
5/02/2011
8:22:32 AM
The reason the whole Pastafarian thing came about isn't quite as funny though... http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

rodw
5/02/2011
8:54:35 AM
Yeah I know that was why I posted it with reference to ODH's question 1 & 2....Id love to say thats just a US thing...but alot of "Christian" schools in Australia want to opush the same agenda....just last year Pacific Hills Christian school in Sydney NW got busted by the education board for teaching Intellegent design in science class not in religion classes. The headmaster of Kings school (one of sydney biggest boys private schools) has openly stated he believes intellegent design over Evolution..wtf???

Ethics classes in public schools are being targetted by the church...initially they tried to have them stopped but seeing they were loosing they are nw trying the..."thats fine but let our kids access them to" so you have scripture and ethics classes at different times...there idea being that they know there isn't enough time for both and if they win ethics will get canned due to time constraits.

Just another example of a religion trying to push agendas on others....
Brazened
5/02/2011
9:18:30 AM
>
>Just another example of a religion trying to push agendas on others....

Thats the problem with freedom of speech! :)

rodw
5/02/2011
9:30:26 AM
I reckon there is a difference of "freedom of speech" vs using your own personal religious belief to determine what is taught in schools that get funding by the govt.

Intelligent design is a religious ideal not a scientific one...teach it in church/scripture if ya like..just keep it out the curriculum.

If a school wants to totally fund itself without public funds...teach what ya like...but while your using govt funds to keep the school running they should teach scientific facts...not religious dogma
widewetandslippery
5/02/2011
9:36:20 AM
I think theists are mentally ill in an infectious leper kind of way and should be locked into assylums, given electro shock and lobotomies and left to rot.
cleftintwain
5/02/2011
10:51:32 AM
On 5/02/2011 widewetandslippery wrote:
>I think theists are mentally ill in an infectious leper kind of way and
>should be locked into assylums, given electro shock and lobotomies and
>left to rot.

I think that's a tad harsh. Upon reflection I will often concede that people are the sum of their experiences and admit that were I born into a theistic household, community or society, then chances are I would be a card carrying member of some OTHER brand of dogmatic ideology.

I emphasise OTHER in order to show that I think us atheists are often dogmatic in our own ways. I'm not perfect however I work very hard every day to examine the assumed pretenses of my ethical framework.

I've given up trying to ratiocinate people out of their religious or mystical beliefs. Lately the religious types frustrate me a lot less than the new age mystics given that most religious people tend to lack rational justification. New age "what the bleep", "quantum mechanics" !@#$tards on the other hand believe that the world of quantum physics gives credence and even proof to the validity of their brand of spiritual "mumbo jumbo" (to steal the words of Michael Shermer).

I will leave it there as my goat is stirring.

Cleftin.
Duncan
5/02/2011
11:12:56 AM
Arguing that the existence of God is beyond reasonable doubt is utterly moronic. If what you believe doesn't affect me then go crazy, but don't try and dress it up as a rational, measured, evidence-based belief. You believe because you do. End of.
Brazened
5/02/2011
12:35:39 PM
On 5/02/2011 widewetandslippery wrote:
>I think theists are mentally ill in an infectious leper kind of way and
>should be locked into assylums, given electro shock and lobotomies and
>left to rot.

I think this statement just proves there are atheists out there who are as imbecilic as the theists they are criticizing. :P
Brazened
5/02/2011
12:49:11 PM
On 5/02/2011 rodw wrote:
>I reckon there is a difference of "freedom of speech" vs using your own
>personal religious belief to determine what is taught in schools that get
>funding by the govt.
>
>Intelligent design is a religious ideal not a scientific one...teach it
>in church/scripture if ya like..just keep it out the curriculum.
>
>If a school wants to totally fund itself without public funds...teach
>what ya like...but while your using govt funds to keep the school running
>they should teach scientific facts...not religious dogma

There are also some atheists who, using evolution, push their own beliefs on to people ie... their own "religious dogma".

Having studied history a bit, I tend to think humans use what ever they can to forward themselves. They have used religion in the past and present to forward their own ideals twisting it to suit themselves and gain power that way. If you look back at history mankind uses all sorts of means and methods to manipulate others for personal gain, power and greed.

Science too is being "used" this way in present times too, whether you like it or not.

Seems one thing stays the same as humans we never learn from our previous mistakes.

Climbers are a pretty funny lot, we all have our own opinions over what we do and aren't afraid of telling others they are wrong. Yet we criticize others for doing the same?

rodw
5/02/2011
1:42:57 PM
I don't believe atheists in general push anything until something is pushed at them.(of course there are exceptions) Most Aetheists do not give religion a second thought until it starts to invade aspects that will affect there everyday life...Id hardly call that dogma...more a case of kicking an ants nest and being surprised things come out and bite.

Ive been asked what my religion is and when told Aetheist, I often get a lecture or a lot of questioning as to why Im wrong...Ill rarely voluntarly supply in general conversation, as to me religion is not that important..what is important is that someone else trys to convince me it should be and I will fight for my rights to not believe.

Science is evidence based...religion is not...however when science is proven wrong or without foundation (which can take some time I agree) generally the accepted belief is dropped and the proven one is accepted......from what ive seen, Religions will ignore fact and simply say its "gods/allahs/sphagheti monsters" way.... but if that makes you happy fine...just don't preach to me Im wrong because I really don't care.

The breakup of religious beliefs in percentages is as follows...
Roman Catholic = 25.8%
Anglican = 18.7%
Other Christian = 19.4%
No religion = 18.7%
Buddhism = 2.1%
Islam = 1.7%
Hinduism = 0.7%
Judaism = 0.4%

No religion is much higher proportion than some pretty high profile religions below it, but if a kid goes to school in this country and dosn't want to go to scripture they are currently put in a classroom and told to entertain themselves. Ethics classes are being proposed so they are not wasting the time and the biggest opponents of this are the "christian" organisations....that sound like religious dogma trying to be forced on others to me? Please show me were Aethism is currently being forced onto the christian or other religious communitys?

Garrath
5/02/2011
2:13:26 PM
Rod is nailing it pretty well at the moment.

What irks me about religious 'education' at public schools is that it usually involves colouring in stencils that say 'I love jesus'. Yep education at it's best. What is really enjoyable is watching the teachers go on the defensive when they are questioned about it.


Wendy
5/02/2011
2:19:40 PM
I am devestated to discover that the testament of the New True Lord, ODH, is as sexist and homophobic as that of the last. I propose that the word "bone" in this newly divined document be replaced with "shag" and "sister" with "sibling". Or is it simply not against the commandments if I go rug munching Sarah's hot little sister?

harold
5/02/2011
2:40:39 PM
ODH wrote
>As long as no-one tries to push it down my throat, it ain't my business
>and I'll get along well with people who believe all sorts of crazy shit............but,
>start dropping hints about how I might want to attend an Alpha Course,
>and I will descend into a state of such childish vindictiveness that you'll
>wonder if its really happening.
Rodw wrote
I don't believe atheists in general push anything until something is pushed at them.(of course there are exceptions) Most Atheists do not give religion a second thought until it starts to invade aspects that will affect there everyday life...Id hardly call that dogma...more a case of kicking an ants nest and being surprised things come out and bite.

Plenty of atheists trying to push/enforce their beliefs:
Just last year in Victoria legislation was almost passed to stop religious organizations or schools from employing people on the basis of their beliefs. Kind of pointless having a church or christian school run by athiests.
Richard Dawkins has been preaching atheism/banning religion for a long time.
Many Communist countries in the past have banned religion.
According to Wetwide we should all be locked up.

I think the above would make being invited to an Alpha course seem a little tame.
It seems a tipsy topsy world where atheists have become the fundamentalist evangelists.

rodw
5/02/2011
3:02:15 PM
On 5/02/2011 harold wrote:
>Plenty of atheists trying to push/enforce their beliefs:
>Just last year in Victoria legislation was almost passed to stop religious
>organizations or schools from employing people on the basis of their beliefs.
>Kind of pointless having a church or christian school run by athiests.
Can you link a website etc about this..first i heard of it? But if its much like what came up in NSW not long ago its more about a teacher can teach science no matter what religion he is...so why wouldnt you employ him. If any organisation gets public funding they open the gates to towing the line in regards to equality due to the source of that money..ie the general public.

>Richard Dawkins has been preaching atheism/banning religion for a long
>time.
I believe hes just against organised religion not the belief itself...thats what I got from his books.

>Many Communist countries in the past have banned religion.
More a political dogma than an aethiest one,

>According to Wetwide we should all be locked up.
Iol, hes what you get when you send your boy to a religious school..they come out fighting.

>It seems a tipsy topsy world where atheists have become the fundamentalist
>evangelists.
Brazened
5/02/2011
4:21:29 PM
On 5/02/2011 rodw wrote:
>I don't believe atheists in general push anything until something is pushed
>at them.(of course there are exceptions) Most Aetheists do not give religion
>a second thought until it starts to invade aspects that will affect there
>everyday life...Id hardly call that dogma...more a case of kicking an ants
>nest and being surprised things come out and bite.

In my experience I've had Atheism pushed down my throat since the early 80's while at a public high school in Victoria. Then again in workplaces when I lived in Sydney.

>
>Ive been asked what my religion is and when told Atheist, I often get
>a lecture or a lot of questioning as to why Im wrong...Ill rarely voluntarly
>supply in general conversation, as to me religion is not that important..what
>is important is that someone else trys to convince me it should be and
>I will fight for my rights to not believe.

I have had the same experience as a Christian. I've never been someone who has pushed religion onto others, but being told I'm a F#$%@ing D%$head by Atheist's
because I believe that there is a God, really make's me want to become an Atheist. (Heavy Sarcasm intended, but not pointed at you Rod.) Honestly I can understand your situation and how you feel.

>
>Science is evidence based...religion is not...however when science is
>proven wrong or without foundation (which can take some time I agree) generally
>the accepted belief is dropped and the proven one is accepted......from
>what ive seen, Religions will ignore fact and simply say its "gods/allahs/sphagheti
>monsters" way.... but if that makes you happy fine...just don't preach
>to me Im wrong because I really don't care.

I don't want to get into this side of the debate, except to say some religions ignore fact

>
>The breakup of religious beliefs in percentages is as follows...
>Roman Catholic = 25.8%
>Anglican = 18.7%
>Other Christian = 19.4%
>No religion = 18.7%
>Buddhism = 2.1%
>Islam = 1.7%
>Hinduism = 0.7%
>Judaism = 0.4%

Roman Catholic, Anglican and Other Christian can be seen as one group - Christian.
Yep they have their differences, but they still read the same book and worship the same God (well to some degree). 63.9%

>
>No religion is much higher proportion than some pretty high profile religions
>below it, but if a kid goes to school in this country and dosn't want to
>go to scripture they are currently put in a classroom and told to entertain
>themselves. Ethics classes are being proposed so they are not wasting the
>time and the biggest opponents of this are the "christian" organisations....that
>sound like religious dogma trying to be forced on others to me? Please
>show me were Aethism is currently being forced onto the christian or other
>religious communitys?

One question about ethics classes, who sets the criteria? Atheists or a combination of Atheists and Christians? This question is asked if Ethics classes take the place of Religious classes. Otherwise I can understand the idea of ethics classes, especially in this day and age. Being the odd kid out in school isn't a pleasant experience.

Then again, when I went to school (In the 80's) there was no religious education, it definitely had a more Atheistic lean. I suppose parents were expected to teach their own kids Ethics and Religion back then.

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