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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

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Author
Off-topic: Climbers who believe in Jesus

IdratherbeclimbingM9
5/02/2011
10:21:07 PM
On 5/02/2011 Miguel75 wrote:
>No M9 you were right. The rattle and thrum of a Ducati, and an Aston,
>are proof to me of intelligent design!;-)

... except that the devil got involved when it came to Duke electrics!
;-)

nmonteith
5/02/2011
10:49:05 PM
When in Kentucky late last year I took an 'enlightening' day trip to the Creation Museum. It's very hard to describe - imagine the most expensive museum with animatronics and mini las vegas stage shows. Its all based around the basic premise that everything in the Bible is word for word the word of God. So if the bible says the earth is 6000 years old it then must be true. They explain how dinosaurs and humans roamed the earth together and that all fossils were formed from Noahs Flood. Nope this isn't some Micky mouse joke museum. It was jammed packed with literally thousands of deadly serious mums, dads, school groups and clean cut teens. All fervent believers. It was terrifying. I overheard several conversations between parents and their kids explaining what they were taught in school was wrong (evolution) and that this museum was right. The most alarming thing was the museum was foundered by a guy from Brisbane! Imagine my embarrassment when i had just written it off as American religious rubbish. Google it - and atheists, prepare to be scared.

nmonteith
5/02/2011
10:56:45 PM
P.s. One of the most memorable bits of the Creation Museum was the dragon theatre. It explained how the dragons of St George era England were actually the last of the dinosaurs before they died out. My favorite quote I overheard was this...

Christian A "how did they fit the dinosaurs on Noahs Ark?", Christian B replied with smug pride "Easy. They just brought baby dinosaurs!". Christian A "Of course! Why didn't i think of that".

Yes, that was a perfectly sane conversation.

harold
5/02/2011
11:09:13 PM
On 5/02/2011 rodw wrote:
>On 5/02/2011 harold wrote:
>>Plenty of atheists trying to push/enforce their beliefs:
>>Just last year in Victoria legislation was almost passed to stop religious
>>organizations or schools from employing people on the basis of their
>beliefs.
>>Kind of pointless having a church or christian school run by athiests.
>Can you link a website etc about this..first i heard of it? But if its
>much like what came up in NSW not long ago its more about a teacher can
>teach science no matter what religion he is...so why wouldnt you employ
>him. If any organisation gets public funding they open the gates to towing
>the line in regards to equality due to the source of that money..ie the
>general public.

I have strong beliefs in freedom of religion and freedom of association.

I was referring to a review in Victoria in 2009 of the exceptions in the Equal Opportunity Act where state anti-discrimination laws dont apply, particularly religious exceptions for churches, religious bodies and religious schools. This basic gist of it was that the review put forward options to remove many of these exceptions so that for example a Christian school could be forced to employ atheist teachers and a Muslim school could be forced to employ Christian teachers etc.
There was some heavy lobbying which forced the government to mostly keep the exemptions. Some news article from the time below.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/government-bows-to-religious-right-20090926-g76u.html

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/pursuing-the-churches-over-human-rights-is-contradictory-20090728-e02j.html?page=-1

Sure you can teach science no matter what religion you are, but I will quote from Peter Costello "Parents who choose to send their children to a Christian school have a reasonable expectation that the child will get a Christian education. How could the school fulfill its obligation to the parents if it is required by law to employ non-Christian or anti-Christian teachers to provide it? If the law demands this you might as well close down the concept of a Christian school - which might be what some of the critics intend."


harold
5/02/2011
11:22:52 PM
On 5/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 4/02/2011 harold wrote:
>>
>>All comments containing insults must be equally balanced by humor. These
>>comments will rated on a scale of 1 - 10 for both insultingness and funniness.
>>Comments will only be accepted if the funniness value is greater than
>the
>>insultingness value.
>>
>>Nice and simple. Now if some nerds can just write some code to automatically
>>rate posts and delete anything which doesn't pass this test chockstone
>>could be an awesome forum.
>>
>Nah, you're looking at it wrong. I see chocky like a bunch of climbers
>talking shit down the pub after a day at the crag.......but a bit more
>sad and lonely.
>
>-If everyone is trying to set the world record for funniness every time
>they open their mouth, it'll get wierd and strained very fast.

Problem is if your are down at the pub and your mate has had a few drinks, if you really insult
him and don't balance it up by making him laugh he might just punch you in the face:)
Yin and Yan, if your not spraying insults you don't have to worry being funny.

harold
5/02/2011
11:49:46 PM
On 5/02/2011 jacq wrote:
>Im sorry if my atheism offends you. But guess what your religious wars,
>jihads, crusades, inquisitions, censoring of free speech, brainwashing
>of children, murdering of albinos, forcing girls into underage marriages,
>female genital mutilation, stoning, pederasty, homophobia, and rejection
>of science and reason offends me. So I guess were even. -- Mike Treder
>
A great article on who kills more, religion or atheism. And even written by an atheist.
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4076

His final comment "The way I see it, you might as well debate what color underpants are worn by the largest number of killers, and try to draw a causal relationship there as well. Religion does not cause you to kill people, and it certainly doesn't prevent you from killing people. Let's stop pretending that it does either."

shortman
5/02/2011
11:53:53 PM
That just about sums it all up Harold.

Miguel75
6/02/2011
1:15:15 AM
On 5/02/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>... except that the devil got involved when it came to Duke electrics!
>;-)

And that's where the blessed Triumph comes in!
martym
6/02/2011
1:46:52 AM
On 5/02/2011 cogsy wrote:
>I wish I wasn't an atheist,

... profound and requires explanation???
One Day Hero
6/02/2011
2:22:44 AM
On 5/02/2011 harold wrote:
>Plenty of atheists trying to push/enforce their beliefs:
>Just last year in Victoria legislation was almost passed to stop religious
>organizations or schools from employing people on the basis of their beliefs.
>Kind of pointless having a church or christian school run by athiests.
>
Not at all. The schools get public money, why should believing in god give you a higher chance of getting a job (I know someone who lied about their beliefs to get a job in a catholic school!!)

What should really be done is to ban teachers who believe in god from teaching at public schools.....how would you feel about that?

>Richard Dawkins has been preaching atheism/banning eligion for a long
>time.

Richard Dawkins is on a sweet gig. He realised that there's a lot more fun, cash, and pussy to be had as a god botherer botherer, than as a serious scientist. Man, if I could get paid to do what he does, I'd be livin' the dream.

>Many Communist countries in the past have banned religion.

"communism"? Please give one example of an actual communist country rather than a military dictatorship flying a red flag.

>According to Wetwide we should all be locked up.
>
Wide is taking the piss, he's actually really nice and would rather have a beer with you than lock you up.

>I think the above would make being invited to an Alpha course seem a little
>tame.

The equivilent is if I invited you to a cult-deprogramming course. Its saying "I know your beliefs, I don't respect them, you're wrong, and I'm right" One should not talk like that to one's friends.

Its the same as if one of your 'friends' invites you to a tupperware party. They are trying to exploit your friendship for financial advantage, and you should be suspicious of whether they ever saw you as a friend, or just a potential mark.

>It seems a tipsy topsy world where atheists have become the fundamentalist
>evangelists.

What others believe in their own home (church) does not affect me (pay some taxes!). However, some churches in australia are very wealthy, powerful and influential. Their beliefs and actions have direct consequences for every australian, and that means that they should be challenged and questioned. Just as every other wealthy, influencial organisation should be too.

dave h.
6/02/2011
2:27:24 AM
Well of course this thread was going to explode on the day when I was out for about 18 hours straight...

ODH - re your questions:

1)
A. God gave people brains to use. See the first three paragraphs of the Wikipedia article on Young Earth Creationism for a succint overview. Genesis isn't written for a bunch of 21st century westerners interested in scientific questions like "how". It's written for people living in the Middle East several thousand years ago. It's about where everything came from, who God is, and how humanity is to relate to Him. Those questions are, for me, the most significant.

2)
B. I'm happy to accept that Richard Lenski's E Coli experiment demonstrated microevolutionary changes in E Coli. I don't know how easy it is to


3.

I don't know if you're asking about Immaculate Conception, the virgin birth, or my Christology.

The phrase "Immaculate Conception" does not refer to the conception of Jesus. Instead it refers to a Catholic doctrine which states that Mary was untouched by Original Sin.
I think it's an unnecessary doctrine and disagree with it.

The virgin birth (/virgin conception) on the other hand, does refer to the conception of Jesus.
I don't think Mary was having it off with some guy, and God decided that He'd use the baby to do some pretty groovy stuff. Matthew & Luke don't go into whether or not Mary's eggs are involved; I'm inclined to think it doesn't matter.

Anyway, your answers:
a) Jesus did not come into existence when Mary became pregnant. John 1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning..." [etc].
b) If I understand this option correctly, accepting it would suggest that God had poured out His wrath for all the sins of history upon an innocent human (who was in no sense divine).
c) (Also applies to b). The Gospels are pretty clear on Jesus being the son of God (for instance Luke 4). Not sure what you mean by 'physical' son - are you trying to tactfully suggest that God got it on with Mary (much like Zeus gets it on with very many women in Greek mythology)?

d) Jesus:
- Eternally begotten of the Father (ie has always existed with the Father, there was never a time when the son did not exist.)
- conceived by the Holy Spirit in an unspecified, miraculous, non-sexual manner.
- born of Mary

See the link for an early Christian creed (it's a bit more expansive than the apostolic creed on questions of Christology). It's a corker ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_versions_of_the_Nicene_Creed_in_current_use#1988_ecumenical_version_.28ELLC.29

Now I'm going to bed...
One Day Hero
6/02/2011
4:41:56 AM
On 5/02/2011 Wendy wrote:
>I am devestated to discover that the testament of the New True Lord, ODH,
>is as sexist and homophobic as that of the last. I propose that the word
>"bone" in this newly divined document be replaced with "shag" and "sister"
>with "sibling". Or is it simply not against the commandments if I go
>rug munching Sarah's hot little sister?

Jeez Wendy, I thought that you were sharper than that. Everything is supposed to be taken absolutely literally!

So, if you wanna go the growl with Sarah's sister, knock yourself out.................would it be sexist of me to ask about chockstone's live video streaming capability?
Wendy
6/02/2011
8:31:42 AM
On 6/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 5/02/2011 Wendy wrote:
>>I am devestated to discover that the testament of the New True Lord,
>ODH,
>>is as sexist and homophobic as that of the last. I propose that the
>word
>>"bone" in this newly divined document be replaced with "shag" and "sister"
>>with "sibling". Or is it simply not against the commandments if I go
>>rug munching Sarah's hot little sister?
>
>Jeez Wendy, I thought that you were sharper than that. Everything is supposed
>to be taken absolutely literally!
>
>So, if you wanna go the growl with Sarah's sister, knock yourself out.................wou
>d it be sexist of me to ask about chockstone's live video streaming capability?

Congratulations, you've really got the feel for this divine order business! Accept all contradictions that are appealing, turn a blind eye to a few others, can you jump up and down about following a few of them to the letter just to round it off? Maybe argue about a few obscure details and ignore any obvious questions?

And I'm concerned that video streaming might be breaching an unspoken commandment about "thou shall not worship false sex such as video, just go out and get laid".
Wendy
6/02/2011
8:55:16 AM
On 5/02/2011 harold wrote:
>On 5/02/2011 rodw wrote:
>>On 5/02/2011 harold wrote:
>>>Plenty of atheists trying to push/enforce their beliefs:
>
>I have strong beliefs in freedom of religion and freedom of association.
>
> I was referring to a review in Victoria in 2009 of the exceptions in
>the Equal Opportunity Act where state anti-discrimination laws dont apply,
>particularly religious exceptions for churches, religious bodies and religious
>schools. This basic gist of it was that the review put forward options
>to remove many of these exceptions so that for example a Christian school
>could be forced to employ atheist teachers and a Muslim school could be
>forced to employ Christian teachers etc.
>snip>>
>Sure you can teach science no matter what religion you are, but I will
>quote from Peter Costello "Parents who choose to send their children to
>a Christian school have a reasonable expectation that the child will get
>a Christian education. How could the school fulfill its obligation to the
>parents if it is required by law to employ non-Christian or anti-Christian
>teachers to provide it? If the law demands this you might as well close
>down the concept of a Christian school - which might be what some of the
>critics intend."
>
>
How did we end up with all these serious posts here??

Really, I think there's a healthy degree of paranoia and persecution complex going on here. Firstly, if 63% of the population identify as christian of some sort, chances are you're going to end up with christian teachers anyway. Secondly, people who are not christian are less likely to want to work in a christian environment anyway, chances increased again. Thirdly, we are talking in the context of the best person for the job. No one is "forced" to hire non christians, merely, to exercise reasonable judgement as to whom is the best person for the job. Out of two similarly experienced and qualified people, choosing the religious one may be seen as a perfectly reasable decision. If you want to take christian teacher with a poor record over a non christian with a great one, well, you aren't doing your school, kids or parents justice either.

Of course, some raving political atheist activist might want to infiltrate the school to corrupt them with ideas of evolution and that moral decisions may be based on some other considerations than the word of god. They might even want to spread the gospel of condoms in catholic schools. But I think your chances are slim. The muslim school probably has greater issues simply because the population of teachers they have to choose from has far fewer muslims in it. But in my world, to receive an education from teachers that build good relationships with students, have a good understanding of the material, have the capacity to convey it in ways that are engaging and intelligible etc etc is somewhat more important, esp given that I can't recollect any furor over actual incidents of nonreligious teachers disrupting the atmosphere and culture of a religious school.
Wendy
6/02/2011
9:03:09 AM
"ATTORNEY-GENERAL Rob Hulls will today announce a controversial compromise struck with the state's religious groups that will allow them to continue to discriminate against gays and lesbians, single mothers and people who hold different spiritual beliefs.

In a move that has delighted religious groups but angered gay activists and discrimination experts, Mr Hulls will protect the right of hundreds of church-run organisations - including schools, hospitals and welfare services - to refuse to employ or provide services to people who they believe may undermine their beliefs.

Under the deal, Mr Hulls will allow church groups to continue discriminating on the grounds of sex, sexuality, marital and parental status and gender identity. But they will be unable to discriminate on the basis of race, disability, age, physical features, political beliefs or activity, or breastfeeding."

And, incidently, that's a far greater range of issues than just religion. I thought we'd gotten over having issues with gay teachers. In a defacto relationship? Sorry, not acceptable. Single mother? Ooops .... Had a sex change? School business apparently.

Wendy
6/02/2011
9:17:42 AM
While we are about it, all of these provisions apply to welfare agencies associated with churches as well. I've spent the last 5 years working for Wimmera Uniting Care, which rather obviously, have a very strong connection to the Uniting Church. However, I am happy to say that I always found them to be an open and nonjudgemental agency. They felt no need to discriminate against people for these characteristics supposedly at odds with their religious mandate. They happily employed gays and lesbians, single parents, people of a range of different political backgrounds, races and religions. No one ever suggested that this somehow impinged upon the work of the agency nor did it draw disapproval from the Uniting Church. Why is it that we get so upset about these things in schools when they are acceptable in other church agencies?
martym
6/02/2011
9:19:31 AM
on the flipside,

Letter from God to Man
by Dan le Sac vs Scroobius Pip
Should lighten the argument up again...

Chloe
6/02/2011
9:47:26 AM
Love that climb name of, Jesus Loves Me The Poofter.

rodw
6/02/2011
12:50:49 PM
>no matter what religion you are, but I will
>quote from Peter Costello "Parents who choose to send their children to
>a Christian school have a reasonable expectation that the child will get
>a Christian education. How could the school fulfill its obligation to the
>parents if it is required by law to employ non-Christian or anti-Christian
>teachers to provide it? If the law demands this you might as well close
>down the concept of a Christian school - which might be what some of the
>critics intend."

Lol hes a politician and Im pretty sure right wing conservative christains are a big voting block for the libs :)

I disagree...you employ a maths teacher to teach maths..where does religion come into that? Sure if he starts preaching that god dosnt exist you can fire his arse as that is not what hes employed for....same for example, if my daughters public school PE teacher told her she will burn in hell because her sport uniform skirt is to short because it dosnt conform to his beliefs as to what is acceptable...Id be up at the school in a flash to complain about him over stepping his boundarys in his employed role etc. Blanket bans based on your religion is discrimination, not matter how you try a package the reason for it

If a school wants to accept public funds to run, they should be open to employing the best people for the job regardless of there religious status equally....when I went to school the only teachers faith I new was the scripture teacher...the others just taught what they were employed to teach. If I ever had a religious question I would ask him, like I wouldnt ask a Maths teacher his thoughts on Jane Austins Emma as it wasn't his role..so what does there religion have to do with teaching to required ciriculum.

Its not an aetheist secret plot to undermine religious schools...but more a anti-discrimination push to allow access the best qualified to be employed by public funds that are provided...regardless of religion.

nmonteith
6/02/2011
12:54:10 PM
Totally agree Rod.

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