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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Poll Option Votes Graph
It's got FHs and a lower off. no trad 10
22% 
It's got FHs but lower off or topout. no trad 2
4% 
It's got FH's all the way topout to trad belay OK 0
 
It's got any old bolt all the way 25
54% 
It's got any old bolt, runout possible 6
13% 
it's got any old bolt but may need trad when easy 1
2% 
scrap the symbol, they are all just climbs 2
4% 
i only climb at ben lomond so i dont understand Q 0
 

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 35
Author
When is a route a sport climb

Superstu
17/01/2011
2:33:29 PM
I don't think there should be only one standard way to write guidebooks in australia, every area is different and has its own unique requirements. I don't think there are many carrots in Tassie (or any??) and it would be silly to mark sport climbs at Araps. How you describe routes on a cliff might depend on the size, rock or layout of the cliff. Written description, photo or super topo?

However, the Sydney guide is about a similar rock type & climbing style as the popular Bluies guide, so some commonality makes sense.

I think distinguishing between carrots and glue-in ring/U has merit because:
a) foreigners like to climb here and many only want french sport, and there are plenty of local climbers with a similar attitude
b) most if not all carrots in the sydney cliffs are old bashins, which comes with an aspect of risk generally not associated with the sport climbing experience. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any glue-in carrots in sydney like there is in the mountains or wolgan.
c) when the carrots were being put in decades ago, there wasn't quite the emphasis on making it safe & fun for the masses. They were hard to place by hand, so there were less of them, further apart, and easy terrain might not have got the treatment.

Mikl has already proposed the idea 'should we treat carrot bolts as trad', and the idea is warming on me. Although the data from bolt testing in Vic isn't in yet, initial results suggest carrots have faired better in the harder stone like granite. So maybe at least 'bashin carrots in soft sandstone should be considered trad'.

Years ago I pulled a carrot out by wiggling it while half way up a sketchy 21 face route at Mt York. I follow Mikls bolt testing with great interest. Are these routes sport climbs? A sport climb and a danger skull&crossbones on the same route? Seems a bit odd. Some climbs may only require quickdraws and bolt plates because that's the only protection available, but are they really sport climbs?







tnd
17/01/2011
2:41:01 PM
On 17/01/2011 superstu wrote:
>...Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any glue-in
>carrots in sydney like there is in the mountains or wolgan...

100% of the hex head bolts at Barrenjoey are stainless glue-ins, fitted in the early 2000's during a complete rebolt of the crag.

For Sydney crags I reckon leave the sport "quickdraw" icon for ring/U-bolt routes with lower-offs and treat everthing else as mixed.

nmonteith
17/01/2011
2:41:59 PM
I remember seeing glue-in carrots at Diamond Bay.
widewetandslippery
17/01/2011
2:44:02 PM
On 17/01/2011 tnd wrote:
>On 17/01/2011 superstu wrote:
>>...Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any glue-in
>>carrots in sydney like there is in the mountains or wolgan...
>
>100% of the hex head bolts at Barrenjoey are stainless glue-ins, fitted
>in the early 2000's during a complete rebolt of the crag.
>
>For Sydney crags I reckon leave the sport "quickdraw" icon for ring/U-bolt
>routes with lower-offs and treat everthing else as mixed.

Plenty of glue ins on sea cliffs at various areas

pmonks
17/01/2011
2:46:35 PM
On 17/01/2011 superstu wrote:
>b) most if not all carrots in the sydney cliffs are old bashins, which
>comes with an aspect of risk generally not associated with the sport climbing
>experience. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any glue-in
>carrots in sydney like there is in the mountains or wolgan.

I can think of several routes at Barrenjoey and Berowra that have (or had, as of 2002) glue-in hangerless bolts (although I'm not sure if they were stainless or not).

>Years ago I pulled a carrot out by wiggling it while half way up a sketchy
>21 face route at Mt York, so I follow Mikls bolt testing with great interest.

And I've pulled out several ring bolts from various places (e.g. the Bentrovarto wall at Sublime Pt) due to poorly set glue. Not sure such anecdotes give us much basis for comparison.

>Are these routes sport climbs? A sport climb and a danger skull&crossbones
>on the same route? Seems a bit odd.

If the protection on a route is 100% bolts, but those bolts are clearly unsafe, it's a sport route that needs to be marked with a skull & crossbones. Plenty of routes like that in Sydney ("Punks in the Pub" at North Coogee being an example that springs immediately to mind - it's a shocker).

nmonteith
17/01/2011
2:51:14 PM
On 17/01/2011 pmonks wrote:
he protection on a route is 100% bolts, but those bolts are clearly
>unsafe, it's a sport route that needs to be marked with a skull & crossbones.

I totally agree.

Superstu
17/01/2011
3:08:46 PM
I stand corrected re glue in carrots in sydney. Guess like the average punter I clipped them without too much thought.

A dangerous sport climb? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Like, I might wake up one lazy sunday morning and go 'he, lets go sport climbing today, i feel the need for hard moves, grades and fun without the poopy pants'
but i don't go, 'hey, lets go clip some bolts whatever the quality i just cant bear to sort my rack from last weekend'




pmonks
17/01/2011
3:17:00 PM
On 17/01/2011 superstu wrote:
>A dangerous sport climb? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Nah - it's just that some routes, like some people, age disgracefully...

Seriously - check out "Punks in the Pub" at North Coogee - it's an instructive lesson in how some fixed protection technologies age. I'm sure the route was safe when it was first put up.
One Day Hero
17/01/2011
9:57:54 PM
On 17/01/2011 superstu wrote:
>A dangerous sport climb? Isn't that an oxymoron?
>
>Like, I might wake up one lazy sunday morning and go 'he, lets go sport
>climbing today, i feel the need for hard moves, grades and fun without
>the poopy pants'
>
So, now the definition of a sport route is that 'it has no moves which can't be avoided by pulling on draws'?

Maybe you need to go travelling, mate. There are plenty of sport routes in Europe which will give you poopy pants. The euros don't seem to need different catagories to deliniate which routes are for scaredy cats and which ones are for climbers!

Go to the cliff, look at the route, if its too runout/scarey/trad/carroty........don't climb it. This is how it has worked for the entire history of climbing.

Now people want an assurance that they will never be confronted by a runout (or a gear placement, or a carrot)........soft, squishy, wussy, useless.......but not in the least bit like any oppressed group who may take offence.
dmnz
17/01/2011
11:46:17 PM
so are you now defining a sport route as one with 'no risk'?


why are people so keen to trust someone else's bolts 'which are safe' when they don't even know who the bolter is, as opposed to placing the gear themselves and knowing pretty much how good the gear is or isn't? do people just like the illusion of 'oh someone else did it so it must be good?'
is this not a reflection on society today where no one is willing to stand up and be responsible, even for themselves?
bones
18/01/2011
9:24:48 AM
On 17/01/2011 dmnz wrote:
>why are people so keen to trust someone else's bolts 'which are safe'
>when they don't even know who the bolter is, as opposed to placing the
>gear themselves and knowing pretty much how good the gear is or isn't?
> do people just like the illusion of 'oh someone else did it so it must
>be good?'

Now there are people on this forum that know more about this than me, but I would think that trad gear falls out a hell of a lot more often than shiny ring bolts, whoever places them. In terms of risk assessment I think bolts win out pretty clearly. Deck falls happen all the time from trad zippering out but I've only heard of one unfortunate incident involving bolts coming off.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
24/01/2011
10:57:14 PM
On 18/01/2011 davidn wrote:
>I think you're reading a bit much into it too! Reflection on society?
>
>More like 'reflection that even experienced tradsters can place gear that
>will see them hitting the ground' as mikl proved. It's much harder to
>place a bolt that badly, and those that are often get replaced.

I think you will find that bad bolts can (and have), been placed often enough, so I doubt it is that hard to do so...

Re replacing them.
It seems to me that this aspect is in hand, ... ~> much to some climbers dismay?
jesus
25/01/2011
12:10:40 AM
>>>and those that are often get replaced...

hmmmm ... one of the ' advantages ' of carrots is that , they can be relatively easy to remove , eg , where they are inappropriate or in a poor position (clipping / rope drag ) ... U-bolts tend to be left in place , in most cases , simply because they are too difficult to extract or result in slowly corroding jagged stubs if chopped ...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
25/01/2011
7:22:50 PM
On 25/01/2011 hexjesus wrote:
>>>>and those that are often get replaced...
>
>hmmmm ... one of the ' advantages ' of carrots is that , they can be relatively
>easy to remove , eg , where they are inappropriate or in a poor position
>(clipping / rope drag ) ... U-bolts tend to be left in place , in most
>cases , simply because they are too difficult to extract or result in slowly
>corroding jagged stubs if chopped ...

... just like normal carrots!
Heh, heh, heh.
martym
25/01/2011
7:46:58 PM
On 17/01/2011 superstu wrote:
>A dangerous sport climb? Isn't that an oxymoron?

but you'll still put the "climbing is dangerous and you could die doing it" on the front page of the book?

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 35
There are 35 messages in this topic.

 

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