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The Stuck Leader Scenario


evanbb

30-Nov-2010
10:26:28 AM

Was frigging with the rigging in the garage yesterday practising a few scenarios that could go wrong when on a long route. Steve and I have got most of them dialled; lazy second needs a z-haul; lowering a prone climber and a few others.

But, I'm still not sure on the Stuck Leader, out of sight and no communication scenario.

You can't assume the gear between you and the leader is good. The only pieces you can trust are your anchor and any pieces you place.

Assume double 9mm ropes and 200m off the deck. Twin 60m ropes and the leader is 25m away.

Has this been covered before BTW? I did a search and came up with nothing. Will post my best guess separately.


evanbb

30-Nov-2010
10:35:53 AM

Definitely need an upward pulling anchor; with some luck the anchor could be set for this already. Tie off which ever rope you think is tightest to keep the leader from plummetting.

Tie off the other rope as well then bundle it and get ready to rope solo lead climb. I'm not going into that as it's been covered elsewhere.

Follow the ropes up and check, then clip any gear the leader placed.

Arrive at leader, who is unconscious but breathing. Build down-pull anchor with what ever comes to hand. Clip leader in hard to anchor, then untie their safety rope. Tie both ropes together and thread through anchor. Get ready to abseil back to the upward anchors, back cleaning all lead placed gear as you go. Clip prone but unconscious climber to belay loop I guess, on a bit of a sling to get them out of the way?

Rap back down both lines, stopping every 55m to build a new anchor, pull the ropes and continue. Get to ground, light a fire and start drinking whiskey until help arrives.

Would be a total frigging epic to manage, but I can't see another way?


nmonteith

30-Nov-2010
10:38:38 AM

This is my guess*. Fix the end of the rope at the belay and prussic up the rope, making sure you reclip the protection below you as you pass it. That way if the leader's anchor fails you take a lead fall (attached via prussics!) to the last bit of gear below you.

* this is my own idea - someone else probably has a better plan!


cruze

30-Nov-2010
10:41:33 AM

Sounds pretty good to me. I suspect that most belayers will have overlooked the need for a good multidirectional anchor and will struggle to comfortably escape a weighted belay. Practice Practice!!

That scenario, as well as a lot of other scenarios, are well-covered in "Self-Rescue" - a great source of information but I have found that you actually need a rope/sling/prussiks/etc in hand to make sure you learn the techniques. Reading it by itself doesn't help.

One Day Hero

30-Nov-2010
10:43:02 AM

How about 'You are climbing in a gorge. The leader is 40m out on 60m ropes on an overhanging, traversing pitch (pitch 5). They fall and are dangling in space, unconscious and bleeding. The bit of gear which caught the whip is suss.'

For convenience, lets make it the roof pitch on Ozy Direct. I reckon the leader is fukced!


nmonteith

30-Nov-2010
10:48:55 AM

how long does it take to die from harness hang syndrome? not long from memory.


pmonks

30-Nov-2010
10:57:09 AM

Isn't this being over thought a bit? I reckon I can answer this conundrum in three words:

Carry a knife!

bones

30-Nov-2010
10:58:48 AM

On 30/11/2010 cruze wrote:
>
>That scenario, as well as a lot of other scenarios, are well-covered in
>"Self-Rescue" - a great source of information but I have found that you
>actually need a rope/sling/prussiks/etc in hand to make sure you learn
>the techniques. Reading it by itself doesn't help.

The book is awesome, but it's easy to think that just because you've read and understood it you will be able to put it into practice. We spent a day at dec crag once practicing everything in the book and this is probably the minium of prep required

One Day Hero

30-Nov-2010
11:01:02 AM

On 30/11/2010 nmonteith wrote:
>how long does it take to die from harness hang syndrome? not long from
>memory.

The super conservative version they teach in rope access is 20mins. I suspect this would be unlikely.........of course, if you can't rescue someone in 20mins when they are on 2 abseil lines and there's a lift back to the top of the cliff, you probably shouldn't be out there. Rescuing a lead climber who can't be lowered back to the belay would suck major balls, and anyone who could get to them in <20mins is pretty bloody good if you ask me...............don't forget that they're still hanging in the harness till you get them awake or on the ground/ledge


rodw

30-Nov-2010
11:13:07 AM

On 30/11/2010 davidn wrote:
>On 30/11/2010 nmonteith wrote:
>>how long does it take to die from harness hang syndrome? not long from
>>memory.
>
>I've never yet seen a single (non-vague) answer to that question, let
>alone a consensus, despite having asked it many times. Here's hoping.

Thats because there is no hard and fast answer..depends on what major vessles are being impacted in the hang...I did read a while ago (so times might be a little out),that the National Speleological Society (NSS) did a hang test and found some people passed out at 5 minutes, and guestimates was that death could come about 5-10 minutes after that, but that extremely worse case.

Other issue is once Harness hang syndrome is indicated you cant just take em off rope harness as the sudden release of build up of lactic acid??? (or something similar) can cause heart failure...or something like that.


cruze

30-Nov-2010
11:34:27 AM

On 30/11/2010 One Day Hero wrote:
>How about 'You are climbing in a gorge. The leader is 40m out on 60m ropes
>on an overhanging, traversing pitch (pitch 5). They fall and are dangling
>in space, unconscious and bleeding. The bit of gear which caught the whip
>is suss.'
>
>For convenience, lets make it the roof pitch on Ozy Direct. I reckon the
>leader is fukced!
Yep. Probably. But at least Tommy's mum can present an open coffin.

It will take longer than 20 mins but you are going to have to get yourself up there and set up an anchor (which could be pretty hard if the gear is suss and the options are limited). You could even short rope/rope solo up to the next anchor opportunity. Then haul the body back to you before reversing the pitch back to your belay with Tommy with prussics etc. Then pull the rope and begin the rap. Hope you brought the head lamp.

widewetandslippery

30-Nov-2010
11:38:00 AM

On 30/11/2010 cruze wrote:
>Yep. Probably. But at least Tommy's mum can present an open coffin.
>
I've never understood putting oneself at risk for body retrieval. The dead have ceased. Compost is compost.


Li

30-Nov-2010
11:50:37 AM

Interesting thread. I'm butting in to ask a probably silly question. Can someone explain to me the hanging syndrome? I understand it's because major arteries may be cut off? If someone became unconcious would they flip upside down or just slump? I'm trying to picture it here. What about hanging belays? Why doesn't that affect you if you're belaying the leader hanging under a roof (like I've seen at Ozy). I would imagine you could be there for 20 minutes or more.

One Day Hero

30-Nov-2010
11:54:10 AM

On 30/11/2010 davidn wrote:
>Crush injuries
>can kill you when the crush is removed because of the flood of toxins and
>resulting renal failure (of all things).
>
>Time to go bouldering.

There's a couple of granite eggs on a slope at Pierce's which have had (downhill!) sit starts excavated by overenthusiastic pebble hounds......you sure bouldering is the way to go?

patto

30-Nov-2010
12:03:46 PM

A unconscious leader out of sight is a formidable challenge.

Here is one situation where the second face just that. The second eventually reached the leader but there was little to be done.

http://www.summitpost.org/account-of-obelisk-accident/575614


Capt_mulch

30-Nov-2010
12:07:48 PM

Hmm, reminds me of climbing Counterbalance at Booroomba with someone who shall remain nameless (Scott - ooops) - he led the second pitch, then I heard some yelling and looked up (neck stretching) and he was waaaaay off route to the right and had run out of holds. Nothing to lower off (slab), nothing to plug into. He spent the next 20 minutes saying "oh f***, oh f***, oh f***" and down climbing the slab and getting back on route. There was nothing that could be done except make sure that I was well tied off to the belay tree and wait for the fall if it was going to happen. Luckily, he was more scared than out of his depth - but it did make me think - what do ya do???

One Day Hero

30-Nov-2010
12:16:39 PM

On 30/11/2010 davidn wrote:
>Pierce's Creek is generally so overgrown you'd have to be either dead
>keen or hoping for some kind of shining first ascent glory to bother imo.
> I'm not a huge fan of eating blackberry and pine needles and tearing holds
>off fire-damaged rock...

You're preaching to the converted, my man......just trying to point out the irony of avoiding crush injuries thru bouldering, when the worst mousetraps i've ever seen were built by boulderers.


evanbb

30-Nov-2010
12:35:53 PM

On 30/11/2010 cruze wrote:
>That scenario, as well as a lot of other scenarios, are well-covered in
>"Self-Rescue" - a great source of information but I have found that you
>actually need a rope/sling/prussiks/etc in hand to make sure you learn
>the techniques. Reading it by itself doesn't help.

This book Cruze?

One Day Hero

30-Nov-2010
12:59:13 PM

Gawd, you see photo's like that and realize there's a group of people who think that is what Canberra climbing is about. How sad!

hargs

30-Nov-2010
1:00:57 PM

> This book Cruze?

That's the one.

There are 37 messages in this topic.