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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 5 of 12. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 235
Author
OT: Rebelious reopening of locked topic
simey
25/08/2010
11:04:03 PM
On 25/08/2010 Sabu wrote:
>...Jesus effectively nullified all those rules and replaced them with 2 simple ones: Love your God and love your neighbor.

The 'Love your God' line is something I struggle with. If there is a God, do you really think he/she gives a flying fcuk about whether you love them? I doubt God is that insecure.

In fact I hate it when people suck up to me purely to get something. And I bet God feels the same way. He/she probably hates all this worship and sucky attitude. I'm sure a more likely commandment from God would be, 'Don't think you are buying your way into heaven by sucking up to me. Go and do something worthwhile instead'.

simey
25/08/2010
11:14:50 PM
As for the 'Love your neighbour' line... well that's something we practise all the time in Natimuk.

Sabu
25/08/2010
11:15:38 PM
If you created the universe wouldn't you want some credit for it?
rod
25/08/2010
11:17:30 PM
On 25/08/2010 kieranl wrote:
>Perhaps couple who want to share a surname should toss for who gets to
>change.

a great double entendre.
simey
25/08/2010
11:17:37 PM
On 25/08/2010 Sabu wrote:
>If you created the universe wouldn't you want some credit for it?

Sort of like, 'About the Author' that we put in the back of our guidebooks.

nmonteith
25/08/2010
11:19:28 PM
On 25/08/2010 simey wrote:
>As for the 'Love your neighbour' line... well that's something we practise
>all the time in Natimuk.

You're on fire tonight Simey! With one liners like that i can finally see how you got 'that' reputation with the ladies.

nmonteith
25/08/2010
11:23:43 PM
On 25/08/2010 Sabu wrote:
>Sigh.
>Short answer is because in the New Testament Jesus effectively nullified
>all those rules and replaced them with 2 simple ones: Love your God and
>love your neighbor. Killing someone because they farted on the sabbath
>wouldn't be loving my neighbor now would it?

So if all this old testament stuff is null and void - why are they still including it in the "word of god"? I don't see a big bookmark in the middle of the Bible that says - ignore everything prior to this point.

Sabu
25/08/2010
11:28:12 PM
Because there is still a lot we can learn from it and it sets the scene for the New Testament. How would know that what Jesus said was so groundbreaking if you don't know the background?

dave h.
25/08/2010
11:37:00 PM
I'm a Christian.

In terms of the church's position on performing gay marriage, I agree broadly with what Sabu said earlier. There is more that could be said (for instance I'm in favour of legal recognition of gay marriages, but I don't support them having the right to be married in a church of their choice).


Pensionerpower - gee, I never thought of that before....Or not...

I agree again with Sabu. I wouldn't say Jesus came to nullify the law, but that he fulfilled it. But whatever word we use, Sabu and I agree that Christians are not saved by obeying the law of the Old Testament (OT).

The Bible is a series of books which have been written to different audiences at different times throughout history. The prophets of the Old Testament foretell the coming of God's 'suffering servant' (Isaiah 53) and the Messiah. The early church (IE post-Jesus) was divided about whether or not it was necessary to obey the OT laws. Paul's letters address this question, as does the letter to the Hebrews. Some references in support of this are:

Romans 3:20-22 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe..."

Galatians 2:15-16: "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."

Hebrews also addresses this.



Neil -
the Old Testament is included because without a knowledge of God's dealings with Israel history it'd be impossible to understand what's going on in the New Testament. For instance, all the stuff Paul wrote to the Galatian and Roman churches (cf above) would make little sense if you didn't know about the 'Law' that he was referring to. Similarly a reader of the New Testament would not be able to see how Jesus fulfills Old Testament prophecy. Further, Jesus quotes the Old Testament - again, need to know what he's getting at. And finally, because we believe it's the word of God.
simey
25/08/2010
11:41:15 PM
On 25/08/2010 nmonteith wrote:
>>So if all this old testament stuff is null and void - why are they still
>including it in the "word of god"? I don't see a big bookmark in the middle
>of the Bible that says - ignore everything prior to this point.

Come on Neil, don't be such a cynic. It makes total sense that God realised there were a few flaws in the First Testament and the obvious way to rectify it all was to have a son who would cruise around and set the story straight.

What gets me is how did missionaries in foreign lands manage to convince locals to reject their beliefs and adopt this crazy story?

dave h.
25/08/2010
11:45:01 PM
Well the fact that there's better historical evidence for the person of Jesus Christ than there is for Julius Caesar might've helped persuade the more reasonable ones.

But why let facts intrude upon some good uninformed slagging...
rod
25/08/2010
11:47:19 PM
On 25/08/2010 simey wrote:
>What gets me is how did missionaries in foreign lands manage to convince
>locals to reject their beliefs and adopt this crazy story?

Money, guns, drugs and death threats have featured.
simey
25/08/2010
11:51:27 PM
On 25/08/2010 dave h. wrote:
>Well the fact that there's better historical evidence for the person of
>Jesus Christ than there is for Julius Caesar might've helped persuade the
>more reasonable ones.
>
>But why let facts intrude upon some good uninformed slagging...

I have no doubt that some bloke called Jesus was cruising around during that period, but I didn't realise he had a birth certificate too.

dave h.
26/08/2010
12:04:29 AM
Well, given that being called "Jesus" in first century Palestine would be like being called "Joe" today, that is hardly a controversial view.

Christ is not a surname. It's a title, and is the anglicised form of the Greek word "Christos", which means Messiah, or 'anointed one' (being anointed was a pretty big deal, to put it mildly).

We are not arguing about the hundreds of first century Palestinian Jews called "Jesus." We are arguing about the historicity of the Jesus as he is depicted in the canonical Gospels. Christianity puts its head on the chopping block of history - if Jesus was not resurrected from the dead then the entire faith collapses. So I'm keen to have the argument if you are...
rod
26/08/2010
12:14:34 AM
sabu and dave seeing as you're both online still, i need a hand as i'm prepping for tomorrow and can't find some info : friend sizes 1.5 and 2 equate to what sizes in camalots?
rod
26/08/2010
12:20:06 AM
found this, great source: info.rockrun.com/attachments/download/7/cam-sizes.pdf

dave h.
26/08/2010
12:22:52 AM
0.75 & 1, I think. Based on data here.
simey
26/08/2010
12:35:11 AM
On 26/08/2010 dave h. wrote:
>We are not arguing about the hundreds of first century Palestinian Jews
>called "Jesus." We are arguing about the historicity of the Jesus as he
>is depicted in the canonical Gospels. Christianity puts its head on the
>chopping block of history - if Jesus was not resurrected from the dead
>then the entire faith collapses. So I'm keen to have the argument if you
>are...

What genuine proof is there that Jesus rose from the dead? I'm sure there are all sorts of potential scenarios. I will look forward to hearing what you put forward.

But like I said earlier, the whole notion that you need to believe this sort of stuff to attain life after death (if such a thing exists) is stupid. A good and just God isn't going to judge people based on their beliefs. Christianity is silly because it simply contradicts itself.

Billie W
26/08/2010
12:36:43 AM
I knew a guy once who Id worked with his name was Jesus with Mexican parents but I dont think he is the one you search for I think he is still in the ADF if you interested. On the serious side though this argument I have had for years with no resoultion. Lucky is the person who walks through life with no prejudice.

dave h.
26/08/2010
1:30:05 AM
On 26/08/2010 simey wrote:
>What genuine proof is there that Jesus rose from the dead? I'm sure there
>are all sorts of potential scenarios. I will look forward to hearing what
>you put forward.

I think that we will disagree as to what constitutes "genuine proof." If you're looking for absolute proof then it's not there. But then absolute proof would be a standard of proof applied to no other historical question (because history can't ever provide proof to that standard). If you want absolute proof then a lot of ancient history goes up in smoke.

I'd make the following points:

1) The idea that a prophet or teacher would be resurrected bodily was one foreign to the Jews of the first century. Similarly it was not something which either the Greeks or Romans had any expectation of.

2) The belief that Jesus was resurrected can be dated to circa 33 AD. (We know this because there is a copy of a letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians which dates to the mid 50s. In the letter Paul quotes a Creed, which Paul says he received at his conversion - IE in the mid 30s. The Creed affirms Jesus' divinity, his death, and his resurrection).

So if you accept that #1 & #2 are true, I think you have reasonable grounds for accepting that Christians believed in the resurrection from the very beginning. (Obviously this is different to proving that their belief was correct). So, what reasons can be advanced for believing that this belief are correct?

3) The empty tomb. Extrabiblical historical sources confirm the Biblical account of tension between the Jesus and the Pharisees (a Jewish sect whose authority was threatened by Jesus' popularity and teaching). If you don't know the story, the Biblical gospels teach that it was the Pharisees who orchestrated Jesus' execution at the hands of the Romans. The point is, had the Pharisees wanted to disprove the Resurrection, which they certainly would have, they could simply have gone down to the tomb, seen Jesus' body rotting there, and then shown the people the fraud the disciples were attempting to perpetrate. They didn't. Instead they argued that the disciples had stolen Jesus' body.

4) There are a number of eyewitnesses who, the Bible says, saw/met/spoke to the resurrected Jesus. Again Paul's letter to the Corinthians details a number of these (1 Corinthians 15:3-8 if you care to check).
a) The gospels indicate that women were the first eyewitnesses. This is significant because, in Jewish antiquity, women's testimony was not admissible in a court of law. If the authors of the gospels were fabricating their story, why would they choose such unreliable (to their mind) witnesses? If you were inventing a story, surely you'd choose witnesses who would be regarded as reliable by your intended audience.
b) Paul's readers could have checked with the people whom Paul alleges saw the resurrected Jesus. Paul would know they could check. Evidently he thought the people he designates as eyewitnesses would corroborate his claim.
c) The disciples were individuals in a position to know whether or not the resurrection of Jesus occurred. They were either convinced that it occurred, or were willing to die for a lie they had helped construct.

And after you changed your reply:
>Like I said earlier, the whole notion that you need to believe this sort of stuff to attain life after death (if >such a thing exists) is stupid. A good and just God isn't going to judge people based on their beliefs. >Christianity is silly because it simply contradicts itself.


Well that's a sophisticated argument. Quite frankly, people have been trying to tear down Christianity for 2000 years. Demonstrating some sort of internal inconsistency or contradiction would be a pretty good way to do it, and so far no-one has succeeded. But don't let that deter you - so, what exactly is contradictory about Christianity?

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There are 235 messages in this topic.

 

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