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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

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Author
OT: Rebelious reopening of locked topic
kieranl
25/08/2010
9:08:29 AM
And why oh why are women still flocking to change their names when they get married? I thought we were starting to get rid of that rubbish 30-odd years ago.
Why do otherwise smart, independent women scrap their public identities for the bloke's? It just floors me.
I'm guessing gay couple won't have that issue when they are finally allowed to wed.

ajfclark
25/08/2010
9:10:29 AM
I wonder how would they decide who gets to change their name?
kieranl
25/08/2010
9:18:30 AM
But why on earth would anyone do it? It's a hangover from the "wife as possession" era. I even still come across instances of young women allowing themselves to be referred to as "Mrs John Smith", where John Smith is their husband.
Crazy stuff.
Can any women who are about to get married please recite to themselves : "I am a real person. I deserve my own name."

Hendo
25/08/2010
9:31:31 AM
On 25/08/2010 kieranl wrote:
>And why oh why are women still flocking to change their names when they
>get married? I thought we were starting to get rid of that rubbish 30-odd
>years ago.
>Why do otherwise smart, independent women scrap their public identities
>for the bloke's? It just floors me.
>I'm guessing gay couple won't have that issue when they are finally allowed
>to wed.

I think if you do this you would need to do away with surnames altogether. I assume if both keep their name, then the children (if any) get both (which comes first?), with each generation surname length will be growing exponentially and become ridiculous; 1,2,4,8,16,32,64... . From this point of view, having just one name to represent a family makes practical sense, given it is the tradition to keep the man's name it seems reasonable to just keep doing it.

When people disparage traditions I often wonder if they really think whatever large number of people who partook in it in the past were unhappy because of it, or will it just be those now and in the future? Perhaps happiness is not a good measure of worth and rather use some impossible notion of equality?
kieranl
25/08/2010
10:04:25 AM
In paractice the people I know who have children and have retained their own names (whether married or not) just work something out. Sometimes it is hyphenation or surnames go with gender or something else. Whatever suits the family.
prb
25/08/2010
10:18:27 AM
Traditionally, children are given the man's name so he has a sense of ownership and to encourage him to protect and provide for them and the woman. Before the molecular age, a woman could be sure of who were her children but a man could never be. The most common reason I've heard women give for taking their partner's name is to have the same name as their kids.

Sabu
25/08/2010
10:25:04 AM
On 25/08/2010 kieranl wrote:
>Can any women who are about to get married please recite to themselves
>: "I am a real person. I deserve my own name."

You make it sound as though I'm some sort of oppressive agent... my fiancee and I are getting married in January and she has intentions to change her name...

Perhaps something to do with tradition and that people WANT to do it. Noone is forced to so please stop making it sound as though they are.
grangrump
25/08/2010
10:47:23 AM
so Mrs sabuse

Sabu
25/08/2010
10:51:04 AM
On 25/08/2010 Wendy wrote:
>I am still curious though - what are these values that the church holds
>that clashes with gay marriage? Can someone elucidate please? Various
>churches around the world are performing gay marriage ceremonies - how
>come it fits their values and not other churches?

A very very very tough question. I'll try point you in the right direction with an answer but take my word for it; I'm not sure either.
One way it may clash is that according to the bible homosexuality is wrong; so by endorsing marriage it is also endorsing homosexuality.
There is of course another clash which is the call to love your neighbour and be acceping of everyone regardless of what they do - This however does not mean such things are endorsed by the Church. So the comparison is really accepting versus endorsement. One can accept a homosexual person but that is different to actively endorsing it. Given that marriage in the Church is very much focussed on God and the couples relationship, you can kind of see the obvious clash.

Various Churches around the world have differring opinions (not just on homosexuality too). For instance some Churches are outright against female preachers yet others like mine see it as a nonissue (and have one on the staff team). Personally I'm not convinved those Churches conducting gay marriages are in the right given that (unlike some issues) it is pretty clear in the bible, but who am I to judge?

Does that help a little?

Sabu
25/08/2010
10:52:16 AM
On 25/08/2010 grangrump wrote:
>so Mrs sabuse

Careful...
kieranl
25/08/2010
11:13:29 AM
On 25/08/2010 Sabu wrote:
>On 25/08/2010 kieranl wrote:
>>Can any women who are about to get married please recite to themselves
>>: "I am a real person. I deserve my own name."
>
>You make it sound as though I'm some sort of oppressive agent... my fiancee
>and I are getting married in January and she has intentions to change her
>name...
>
>Perhaps something to do with tradition and that people WANT to do it.
>Noone is forced to so please stop making it sound as though they are.
Sabu,
I'm not saying women are forced to, you are obviously misinterpreting what I am saying (not good for a psychology student), I just don't understand why people still do it.
"Tradition" isn't sufficient by itself. There are lots of traditions that we have happily sloughed off. This one seemed to begin to die in the late 70s/early 80s. A few people I know married and kept their own names and the world did not end.
I would have thought that to make such a fundamental change you should be able to articulate a sound reason.

nmonteith
25/08/2010
11:14:04 AM
On 25/08/2010 Sabu wrote:
>One way it may clash is that according to the bible homosexuality is wrong;
>so by endorsing marriage it is also endorsing homosexuality.



Sabu
25/08/2010
11:29:00 AM
Thought that might come up Neil.

On 25/08/2010 kieranl wrote:
>Sabu,
>I'm not saying women are forced to, you are obviously misinterpreting
>what I am saying (not good for a psychology student), I just don't understand
>why people still do it.
>"Tradition" isn't sufficient by itself. There are lots of traditions that
>we have happily sloughed off. This one seemed to begin to die in the late
>70s/early 80s. A few people I know married and kept their own names and
>the world did not end.
>I would have thought that to make such a fundamental change you should
>be able to articulate a sound reason.

Well with things like "rubbish", "crazy stuff" and "I am a real person. I deserve my own name" one gets an adequate glimpse of your tone. I'm just quite taken aback as to how strongly you are against it, and its something I've never across as an issue before.

The major factor would be that people want to do it. I'm sure if people want to build a family then they would all want the name family name, I sure do.

I'm starting to think that some people are against traditions for the sake of being against traditions; like change for the sake of change.
kieranl
25/08/2010
11:41:30 AM
On 25/08/2010 Sabu wrote:
>Well with things like "rubbish", "crazy stuff" and "I am a real person.
>I deserve my own name" one gets an adequate glimpse of your tone. I'm just
>quite taken aback as to how strongly you are against it, and its something
>I've never across as an issue before.
>
>The major factor would be that people want to do it. I'm sure if people
>want to build a family then they would all want the name family name, I
>sure do.
>
>I'm starting to think that some people are against traditions for the
>sake of being against traditions; like change for the sake of change.
I'm against it primarily because it dilutes the woman's identity. There's probably a whole mass of social theory out there about it but that's not my field.
I probably get my strong views on this from the women who influenced me in my late teens and early twenties and challenged my conservative gender role views.
I guess we were just ahead of our times in the seventies.
mikllaw
25/08/2010
12:02:34 PM
The name change thing just odd, and hyphenation is an abomination against the english language. The logical thing would be to both change our names, I considered changing Ness (peterson) and my last name to petra, sort of like peter and sort of like rock. A nice thought but then I thought of what an expense of effort and paperwork it would be, and wondered why so many women bother. Especially as, in a well run marriage, they own the guy?

Eduardo Slabofvic
25/08/2010
12:04:47 PM
On 25/08/2010 Sabu wrote:
>>... my fiancee
>and I are getting married in January

Didn't you just leave high school?
climberman
25/08/2010
12:12:29 PM
On 25/08/2010 mikllaw wrote:
>The name change thing just odd, and hyphenation is an abomination against
>the english language. The logical thing would be to both change our names,
>I considered changing Ness (peterson) and my last name to petra, sort of
>like peter and sort of like rock. A nice thought but then I thought of
>what an expense of effort and paperwork it would be, and wondered why so
>many women bother. Especially as, in a well run marriage, they own the
>guy?

I had a workmate who changed his name - they both squished their names to form a hybrid and adopted that. He was afunny nutter. Scientologist !

My missus ended up changing her name, but only after five or six years. She reckoned it was easier with forms and whatnot, given we have two kids. I think it kind of weird, but, whatever, it was her decision.
widewetandslippery
25/08/2010
12:27:50 PM
On 25/08/2010 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>On 25/08/2010 Sabu wrote:
>>>... my fiancee
>>and I are getting married in January
>
>Didn't you just leave high school?

He goes to a church where they have a preacher not a priest so divorce is probally cool.

Never Believe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwwAPR2OhaM
lacto
25/08/2010
12:50:27 PM
Don't nuns marry God . so multiply partners is ok for god and he must be male to marry which brings up the problem with priests they cant marry god as it would be ???

the church of england prayer book used to have a great list of who and who you couldn't marry . yet not all of these were for the purpose of stopping inbreeding but just for "social reasons"
Now as 2 years of cohabitation is treated the same as marraige in distributing assests after a split marriage is nolonger needed to secure a share of joint assets.
Recently attended a wedding of a couple of 10+ years on which some $70000 was spent seemed a huge waste of money to me

Sabu
25/08/2010
12:52:25 PM
On 25/08/2010 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>On 25/08/2010 Sabu wrote:
>>>... my fiancee
>>and I are getting married in January
>
>Didn't you just leave high school?
As in 4 years ago? Yes.

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There are 235 messages in this topic.

 

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