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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 4 of 8. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 141
Author
Australia goes down the toilet!

Gavo
22/08/2010
11:12:24 PM
anthropogenic (not morphic :) climate change is pretty much a given... the so called "debating" scientists, are almost always exclusively not climate scientists but other types, if any at all... one wouldnt go to a dentist to get an opinion on a skin-mole... makes me wonder why people take such stock in "scientists" that deny... and even if there wasnt solid evidence that its anthropogenic, its clearly occurring so surely its worth at least attempting to curb the damage we might be contributing to the problem.. gets me agro.

but to the op... no sorry dont know of anywhere better! Dont know how official the 10% figure is either... I know some deniers, but certainly not many... imho Australia is better than many places in leading the way on issues such as this, even if we continue to be one of the leading CO2 emitters per capita.

nmonteith
22/08/2010
11:18:40 PM
and my 2cents... I work on Oxford Street, and my boss and several other work mates are gay. I have good friends (male and female) who are also gay. In this day and age I believed that someones sexual orientation is just not an issue anymore. Certainly in my industry (film&tv) no ones bats an eyelid. I fail to see how someones sexual orientation effects you Phil? Whats that all about? My boss has two wonderful kids (actually they are now young adults). I've worked with both of them over the years and they are about the most clever, well adjusted people I know. I obviously live in a bubble because where I come from everyone gets along just fine. In all my years on earth I have never heard such vile direct stuff put in the public eye so directly - and especially in front of people who are your friends. How you considered that several climbers that you have met were probably gay? 10% of the population means statistically speaking its probably happened many times! Imagine what they think of you now? I'm just disappointed that in this day and age this is still an issue in modern Australia. It truly makes me sad. This is not about politics - it's just about prejudice and ignorance.

dave h.
23/08/2010
12:59:53 AM
JS Mill's classic "On Liberty", in 3 easy sentences for climbers.

Freedom means you get to make your own choices about things which concern you, and that other people (including society at large) is allowed to judge and criticise you for the choices you make. Legal intervention is justified if you start to directly harm someone else, but not otherwise. Free speech (including that of the fringe loonies) is good because the discomfort it induces paradoxically causes us to re-examine our own views, and often strengthens the conviction with which we hold them.

Neil, with respect I think your post is naive and reflects a pluralistic world-view (which most others here would share I'd guess) in which everyone accepts/tolerates any action so long as it doesn't harm anyone. I think that becomes problematic when you start to expand the meaning of toleration or acceptance to the point where A cannot make a moral judgement about the actions of B and express them publicly without being criticised as prejudiced or ignorant. The criticism (prejudice/ignorance) is not the problem - what is problematic is the worldview which does not allow for any individual freedom of conscience to make moral judgements which differ from those of the majority.

Note that I'm not saying that Phil's comments qualify as a moral judgement. Not every 'moralistic judgement' should be accorded the respect we give to moral judgements (which are personal views on what is right and what is wrong which are supported by reasons. These reasons need not be accepted by everyone but they must be more than mere prejudice, rationalisation, parroted garbage, etc).

(edited for clarity / emphasis/1am typos)
J.C.
23/08/2010
1:18:10 AM
On 22/08/2010 simey wrote:
>On 22/08/2010 One Day Hero wrote:
>>Also a bizarre misuse of the english language. A "fag" is someone who
>>doesn't ever climb on natural gear, or doesn't climb routes with carrots
>>cause they feel its unsafe, or only boulders........I don't understand
>>this wierd notion that it has something to do with sexuality
>
>You're dead right ODH. And I'm sure you are in agreement with me in saying
>that 'fags' shouldn't be allowed to raise children. Imagine the bullying
>that could take place at school if it was discovered that a child had parents
>who only bouldered or climbed on bolts. They would be scarred for life.
>

Like I said each to their own but if I ever have kids they certainly wouldnt be allowed to socialise with the offspring of boulderers
Gareth
23/08/2010
5:05:39 AM
Phil,
I've never really gotten to know you over the years. We've spoken to each other but never climbed together. I'm sort of happy about that now. I didn't know you well enough to respect you or not. I still respect your right to say whatever you want to, but I don't respect you.

The idea that you are leading children in the outdoors (or anywhere else) scares me.
Feel free to discuss all this with me when we eventually run into each other again. I'll be more than happy talk to you in person about it.

Phil Box
23/08/2010
6:50:50 AM
To Neil and Gareth in particular and others generally.

That post was not aimed at anyone in particular thus not a personal attack. It would be very wrong of me to single out a particular person and pointedly call them out in the same manner as my post. Of course a politician is fair game in a politics thread.

I think most people have totally missed my point in that post as well. My point is more that politicians and greens in particular have a hidden agenda whilst campaigning and as soon as the votes are cast they come out and reveal their real agenda. Let us see what you (the pollies) represent during the campaign.

The first thing I saw on election night was a gay green polly coming out on national TV declaring that marriage in Oz was discriminatory because gays couldn't become married.

That is something that did not get an airing at all during the campaign. I did not hear one greens candidate make any mention of that as an election issue and yet now it is a big hot button item.

The Australian people have not been given a fair chance to debate that issue and yet now we have a party that will hold the balance of power and has the chance now to push through an extremely divisive issue without bringing the Oz people along for the ride. There will be no ownership if this issue gets up.

We need this debate and frankly I enjoy being part of a controversial issue debate.

Why shoot the messenger.


Phil Box
23/08/2010
6:58:18 AM
On 23/08/2010 Gareth wrote:
>The idea that you are leading children in the outdoors (or anywhere else)
>scares me.

So are you saying that what I think will affect how those kids are kept safe. Definitely not following your logic and reason on this one.
J.C.
23/08/2010
7:41:57 AM
Well whatever he's started it's kept me mildly entertained through a long night of writing a sociology paper and that's all I could ever ask

nmonteith
23/08/2010
8:00:04 AM
Phil, there is a civil and respectable way of starting this debate and then there is your method. In my circle of family and friends what you said was the equivalent of calling black people the N word. It's deeply offensive.

I would be very careful if I was you. If a politician or public servant wrote what you wrote in a public forum and the media found it the chances of that person being in their job on monday morning would be slim. Think about that.

Statistics say that a decent percentage of the kids you teach would be gay. Imagine if they read what you wrote? How would they feel about themselves? Would it give them the self confidence to be a happy and productive person to society? Would their parents be happy that you are teaching their kids? I know I wouldn't be.

I can guarantee with that single post you have strongly changed what many of your climber friends think about you. They might appear to be laughing with you at the crag, but many will be pondering how to distance themselves from you. I know this because they have emailed me. If you have such strong beliefs then keep them to yourself, especially at the crag.

The debate over gay marriage is a good one to have, and I saw many mentions of it during the campaign. I think the fact the the leaders of the Greens is very publicly gay means it pretty easy to connect the dots into presuming that they would have pro-gay policies. If you think this was some hidden agenda you obviously had your eyes firmly shut. It's been part of their public agenda for years. Having one person in the House of Reps doesn't exactly mean that suddenly your nice cuddly conservative values are going to be rubbed in the dirt. The senate doesn't create legislation, so the fact the Greens have the balance of power won't suddenly open the floodgates to a gay revolution.

Phil Box
23/08/2010
8:12:16 AM
If I have offended individuals personally with my broad sweeping generalisations then I am of course deeply sorry. That was not my intention. My intention was and always has been that in a political discussion thread that my opposing view should be discussed with robustness and boldness. Such a pity that this discussion devolved into personal attacks. The messenger has been well and truely shot.

Not a lot of point continuing with this thread as it has now lost all context due to censorship. Pity, it was very lively, yes it was controversial. I thought we climbers were not afraid to take on risky projects. Seems I was wrong.

Still wondering how this got from a discussion about homosexual marriage to racism. Seems thaTt if some don't like the subject of discussion and iit does not accord with their world view then the hammer should be dropped. Pity.
bones
23/08/2010
8:26:16 AM
On 23/08/2010 Phil Box wrote:

>That is something that did not get an airing at all during the campaign.
>I did not hear one greens candidate make any mention of that as an election
>issue and yet now it is a big hot button item.
>

The Greens "How to Vote Card" that was handed out the polling station in my electorate very clearly stated the greens support for Gay marriage.
Bob Brown, leader of the Greens, has been a very vocal supporter of Gay marriage for as long as I can remember.
Gareth
23/08/2010
8:45:21 AM
On 23/08/2010 Phil Box wrote:

>Why shoot the messenger?
Because it's your message it's not from someone else. I'm not shooting you, I just lost any respect for you.

>It would be very wrong of me to single out a particular person and pointedly call them out.
So it's ok to call groups of people whatever you want (however disrespectful, intolerant, ignorant or bigoted you are) as long as you don't single one person out?

>greens in particular have a hidden agenda whilst campaigning..... something that did not get an airing at all during the campaign.
http://greens.org.au/content/have-you-seen-ad-everyone-talking-about
Perhaps if you were politically aware you would look into other parties platforms.

I'm not saying you are incapable of keeping kids safe. I don't know about that.
If I emailed your employer forwarding what you expressed on a public forum, would they be happy? Why not? It's nothing to do with being PC. It's about having bigoted values. No one wants their kids being influenced by intolerant bigots.

12% of Australia voted green. Even without proportional representation they only got one seat in the lower house. It's not exactly a flood.
This is the country you live in. As a lot of redneck bumper stickers say "Australia. If you don't love it- Leave"
kieranl
23/08/2010
8:51:55 AM
On 23/08/2010 bones wrote:
>
>The Greens "How to Vote Card" that was handed out the polling station
>in my electorate very clearly stated the greens support for Gay marriage.
>
>Bob Brown, leader of the Greens, has been a very vocal supporter of Gay
>marriage for as long as I can remember.
Yes, the gay marriage issue was very much out there. Penny Wong took a big, and unfair, hammering on it on Q&A, to mention just one instance.
While it wasn't, and shouldn't be, a first order issue, it would have been hard to miss for people taking any interest in the campaigns.
Hugh
23/08/2010
9:09:16 AM
Don't mean to go against the majority, would hate to do that here... But I don't believe phils comments are homophobic.. He hasn't mentioned that he hates gays, or disagrees with their choice.. He just doesn't think gay marriage would work.. These comments are also not racist and he cannot therefore be labled a bigot or homophobe... Unlike most other comments on this thread aswell, he has stated his justification for the arguement aswell... In saying that, one might say it was the most informed comment


*Note: I do not disclose my thoughts on the matter as I am still undecided. I do in fact have family members with same sex couples and children
TonyB
23/08/2010
9:11:59 AM
>>Australia goes down the toilet!

I hope someone remembers to flush the whingers and whiners.

nmonteith
23/08/2010
9:17:55 AM
On 23/08/2010 Hugh wrote:
>Don't mean to go against the majority, would hate to do that here... But
>I don't believe phils comments are homophobic.. He hasn't mentioned that
>he hates gays, or disagrees with their choice.. He just doesn't think gay
>marriage would work.. These comments are also not racist and he cannot
>therefore be labled a bigot or homophobe... Unlike most other comments
>on this thread aswell, he has stated his justification for the arguement
>aswell... In saying that, one might say it was the most informed comment

You probably didn't get the 'pleasure' of reading Phil's first post on this topic on page 1 - which has subsequently been moderated. He used words and phrases that most Australians would consider to be offensive. Phil has every right to talk about gay marriage - but on this forum his original remarks are NOT acceptable.
Hugh
23/08/2010
9:21:28 AM
ahhh the moderated post is little tamer ey?
Hugh
23/08/2010
9:22:23 AM
ps. Neil I think you may have worked out which side of the politcal fence chockers sit on

nmonteith
23/08/2010
9:22:33 AM
And to throw a cat amongst the pigeons. So what about kids who have come from sperm & egg banks, surrogate mothers or been adopted? They would also not have a mother and father in the classical sense.
Hugh
23/08/2010
9:23:51 AM
perhaps we should capture some children and do some testing?

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