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Getting to the top is all that's important

Duncan

3-Jun-2010
4:26:03 PM

On 3/06/2010 cruze wrote:
>I assume when you boulder you don't use chalk and shoes and you crawl
>from your home to the crag. And what's with sport climbing? That rock did
>nothing to you and now you are supporting those that want to go drilling
>holes in it to make it easier for you?

What have shoes and chalk got to do with good style? That makes no sense.

I think the problem here is that you're entirely unable to separate my argument about doing things in good style from what you perceive as a slight on your friends achievement.


cruze

3-Jun-2010
4:52:55 PM

I have never met John. As a fellow human I am in awe of the fact that he did what I couldn't, by focussing, preparing, enduring, succeeding. That is his journey. If I take anything out of it is that if I applied myself with the rigour that he has demonstrated then I would be a better person.

psd

3-Jun-2010
5:11:42 PM

On 3/06/2010 Duncan wrote:
>What have shoes and chalk got to do with good style? That makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense - shoes and chalk have everything to do with style. Go and repeat some old classics in hiking boots like the first ascentionists and see how you go - their style of ascent is much more impressive than ours. And when chalk started being used didn't people see it as aid? It sure as hell helps me out.

Everyone has different standards dude. For you it's supplemental oxygen for others it's shoes and chalk. As long as you are honest and aren't hurting anyone (or the rock) what's the problem?

dmnz

3-Jun-2010
5:41:57 PM

I agree with a lot of what you've said about style/ethics and guiding as well, Duncan.

BUT...You might accept chalk and shoes but that doesn't mean it has nothing to do with ethics. Surely it makes it easier otherwise you wouldn't be paying all that money for it.

I use chalk and shoes as do lots of others. It's a personal choice. But to others chalk is not ethical.

Have a read of Chouinard's "Climber's Bill of Rights" for his views:
"If you use chalk, place a bolt, chip holds, leave fixed 'pro'...it's all bad ethics". That is just one example and one man's views but there you go. He goes on to talk a lot about guiding that you would agree with. And as I've said before he has been known to say some not so nice things about 'sport climbing' but again one man's views. We are not just making up arguments to put you down at all. At least I am not. I agree that a 13 yr old being guided up Everest isn't all it's made out to be by the media (But then again, what is?) but it's still not easy and as Gordoste says deserves some credit.

There is also no need or right to attack Duncan personally: @Cruze. I don't agree with his original posts on the other thread but I welcome his comments re style and even respect the fact he has stuck by them in the face of the responses. Just don't appreciate how he has done it.Anyway I've had my say.

It's not about right or wrong but tolerance and doing what is right by ourselves. For some the line is drawn here, for some there. Draw your own line and follow it.

One Day Hero

3-Jun-2010
5:49:54 PM

On 3/06/2010 gordoste wrote:
>Way to set up a straw man Duncan. Of course no-one thinks that what happened
>on Cerro Torre is acceptable.

Do we know what happened on Cerro Torre? Sounds like most of the bolts might have gone into the new rap route. When I was in the Bugaboos a couple of years ago, the rangers were bolting rap routes off all the summits. I'm not sure what to think of it, there is a 'taming wild places' problem, but its also a bit contrived to not bolt these raps now that drills are so light...........and I consider myself to be toward the trad end of the spectrum!

Some dude in the responses was spewing about how Americans would feel if an Argentinian went and retro bolted the nose.........but, as I understand it, all belays + a separate rap route on the nose are already bolted. Maybe they were just bringing Cerro Torre up to Yosemite and euro-mountain standards?

>I don't think anyone is trying to say that the young kid who climbed Everest
>is the next Messner - but that doesn't mean we can't give him a bit of
>credit. When was the last time you achieved something that took 4 years
>of effort?

????, how did it take him 4 years to climb everest? Preparation? By that rationale, my redpoint of some no-name sport route in the Blueys recently was the culmination of a decade of preparation.


rodw

3-Jun-2010
7:39:35 PM

TBH when it comes to style...who gives a f*ck? its all about fun aint it...if you get guided, levitate or chops ya legs off and crawl up hill to climb everest its personal goals that count and who cares what others think?????....I think it a greater crime if your doing something in away because your "friends" say others ways are irrelevant.

Maybe it just me??? but after 20 odd years of climbing I think if I did care I would have given it up in frustration a long time ago...I still go out when I can and have fun and enjoy it all.....Ill leave the self recrimination for work days.

dmnz

3-Jun-2010
7:57:58 PM

On 3/06/2010 rodw wrote:
>TBH when it comes to style...who gives a f*ck? its all about fun aint it...if
>you get guided, levitate or chops ya legs off and crawl up hill, climb,
>everest its personal goals that count and who cares what others think?????....I
>think it a greater crime if your doing something in away because your "friends"
>say others ways are irrelevant.

lol...nice


cruze

4-Jun-2010
9:51:47 AM

On 3/06/2010 dmnz wrote:
>There is also no need or right to attack Duncan personally: @Cruze.
That wasn't personal... I objected to the patronising tone he took at the ripe old age of 26 to calling me a "kiddo".

onsight

4-Jun-2010
10:53:11 AM

http://gravsports.blogspot.com/2010/06/david-lama-red-bull-patagonia.html


gordoste

4-Jun-2010
1:07:41 PM

On 3/06/2010 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 3/06/2010 gordoste wrote:
>>Way to set up a straw man Duncan. Of course no-one thinks that what happened
>>on Cerro Torre is acceptable.
>
>Do we know what happened on Cerro Torre? Sounds like most of the bolts
>might have gone into the new rap route. When I was in the Bugaboos a couple
>of years ago, the rangers were bolting rap routes off all the summits.
>I'm not sure what to think of it, there is a 'taming wild places' problem,
>but its also a bit contrived to not bolt these raps now that drills are
>so light...........and I consider myself to be toward the trad end of the
>spectrum!
>
>Some dude in the responses was spewing about how Americans would feel
>if an Argentinian went and retro bolted the nose.........but, as I understand
>it, all belays + a separate rap route on the nose are already bolted. Maybe
>they were just bringing Cerro Torre up to Yosemite and euro-mountain standards?

What happened to consulting locals? I guess it would be OK with you if someone comes from overseas and brings Arapiles "up to" Spanish or French standards?

>>I don't think anyone is trying to say that the young kid who climbed
>Everest
>>is the next Messner - but that doesn't mean we can't give him a bit of
>>credit. When was the last time you achieved something that took 4 years
>>of effort?
>
>????, how did it take him 4 years to climb everest? Preparation? By that
>rationale, my redpoint of some no-name sport route in the Blueys recently
>was the culmination of a decade of preparation.

I agree with you here. If you thought to yourself 10 years ago "I want to climb that route", analysed what needed to be done to get there and then did it, then IMO your achievement is just as worthy as that 13-year-old's. Congratulations! However, the media don't care about you.


ajfclark

16-Jul-2010
9:20:31 AM

Will Gadd discusses the Compressor Route & David Lama: http://gravsports.blogspot.com/2010/07/lama-red-bull-cerro-torre.html


markq

16-Jul-2010
4:22:20 PM

Has there been any mention of Messner's "Murder of the impossible" in this thread so far?

http://upwardtrail.multiply.com/journal/item/1

Might be of interest

Cheers


IdratherbeclimbingM9

20-Jul-2010
9:42:15 AM

On 3/06/2010 Duncan wrote:
>http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web10s/newswire-david-lama-compressor-bolts
>
>It's all good though, because he was trying to achieve his dream, am I
>right?

For a talented young (yes 19 yrs old is young from my perspective), climber to take on one of history’s most contentious climbs in order to do it in better style is laudable.
It is a shame that the entourage accompanying him (presumably inclusive of experienced people), did not inform him of the politics surrounding the climb, or that his intention would be scrutinised closely as a result.
Red Bull certainly got their sponsorship promotion out of it, but perhaps not in the way they intended...


cruze

20-Jul-2010
9:55:00 AM

On 16/07/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>Will Gadd discusses the Compressor Route & David Lama: http://gravsports.blogspot.com/2010
>07/lama-red-bull-cerro-torre.html
Quite an interesting read from Will Gadd, although it is pretty clear that he is torn between his honest beliefs and being critical criticising one of his sponsors.

As a proud armchair critic I cringe every time I read an elite sportsman criticise the validity of armchair critics' opinions. On many levels they are right to do so, but it counters my belief that the only reason they have a job in the first place is because society is full of people going about their own pursuits in their own ways. In other words they climb because other people don't climb, like the teachers who gave them an education, the bankers that take care of their material wealth, the council who collects their rubbish. I doubt that they hold back being critical of some of those individuals.


runnit

22-Jul-2010
12:03:07 PM

On 20/07/2010 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>
>Red Bull certainly got their sponsorship promotion out of it, but perhaps
>not in the way they intended...
>

I'd say Red Bull takes any publicity as good publicity. Last year they were involved in chopping down a heap of trees from around a BASE exit point in Switzerland so they could get the right camera angle or something. Everyone was understandably pissed, but nothing was done to fix up the site. Stumps were left sticking a foot out of the ground and the old trees are still just in a big pile on the edge of the cliff (I was there 2 weeks ago).

Fark Red Bull.

Take!

27-Jul-2010
3:02:34 PM

Redbull are at worst an opportunist in a situation provided by the collective climbing ego.
Their actions are a symptom of a larger dis-ease.

It will be a happy day for the cliffs when 'anonymous' becomes the only name we need use when listing ourself as the first ascentionist, and let the glory of the climb remain with the rock alone.

To borrow from the topic of a recently replied thread:
"The smaller we come to feel ourselves compared to the mountain, the nearer we come to participating in its greatness. I do not know why this is so". - Arne Naess.

There are 36 messages in this topic.