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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 4 of 9. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180
Author
Boganville

Miguel75
6/05/2010
5:03:52 PM
On 6/05/2010 gordoste wrote:
>Obviously if they are asking for more bolts, they want to bolt more routes.

They can keep the bolts. I just wish I had more nuts...

Butters81
6/05/2010
7:04:02 PM
Simon, when can I expect to purchase this new book?
BA
6/05/2010
7:04:05 PM
I can't believe this thread. I mean, I really can't believe it! Where on earth did this line of thought come from? I've written guides to Stapylton, The Wonderland Range, The North Grampians, The Black Range, Mount Difficult Range and multiple editions of NW Victoria, SW Victoria, Eastern Victoria and updates that have appeared in Argus and Screamer and contributed to other guides. If that sort of crap was put to me I would publish the email excerpts that Mr Onsight has published above and then give them my own names, or names suggested by those associated in the public slagging off of those concerned, to the climbs.

All this nonsense reminds of something similar in the UK many years ago when a climber who was sponsored by a big company started doing new routes that incorporated the name of his sponsor. The commercial aspect is similar. If you are to be paid in bolts or cash, what is the difference? It is a mercenary approach to a past time that purports to be anarchic (although most of the time it is certainly not). If they didn't provide FA details I'd credit all the FAs to Gordon Gecko.

There are two things (among a lot of others that I won't mention) that I'll pass further comment on: 1. A comment along the lines of "If it wasn't for new routes there'd be no need for guidebooks". All I can say is that the people who doing these routes are setting themselves up as being on a higher plain than Ewbank, Baxter, Mikl, Onsight and everybody else who has done a new route. They must be 100% certain that their assessment of grade, quality, length and that the accuracy of their write-ups DOES transcend anything that has existed before and will exist into the future. Routes change, holds break, techniques improve, the route becomes an easy day for a lady (I can remember quotes along similar lines in the '70s). If these people are that certain of their routes, then they shouldn't let anyone interfere with the way they want their routes written up. 2. These people certainly put paid to the notion that people only do new routes to get their names in guidebooks, eh?

mattjr
6/05/2010
7:09:38 PM
On 6/05/2010 BA wrote:
>I can't believe this thread. I mean, I really can't believe it!

Yep i'm totally with with you here BA

On 6/05/2010 BA wrote:
> If they didn't provide FA details
>I'd credit all the FAs to Gordon Gecko.

I like Simeys suggestion better..

Long live the I.R.A!!
climberman
6/05/2010
7:27:59 PM
Truly amazing thread. I honestly though thtat the OP was taking the piss.

It will be good to buy your book Simon.
hargs
6/05/2010
8:27:17 PM
Yep: I'll buy the new guidebook too, and I'll buy the addendum with re-named routes and IRA style route descriptions -- and I'll make an open offer to help anyone who'd like a hand writing it.

cruze
7/05/2010
9:02:00 AM
If anything this thread provides a reminder to those establishing routes that, and assuming chockstone is representative of the much larger climbing community (which might be a stretch), the climbing community expects those that put up routes to be altruistic and wear the cost and disseminate information at the call of those writing guide books. That is the current paradigm but we shouldn't assume that it always has to be that way, although personally I see that as the most practical way of doing it. Some new routes cost a lot more than others. Blueys sandstone will generally be a more expensive medium than Wimmera sandstone.

IMHO the OP has presented his opinion, and recollection of events, in a mildly mannered way - as have other posters. Others have expressed their opinion as a personal attack. That is the choice that everyone can make, although I would prefer it to be a healthy debate without the personal stuff. Then again, sticks and stones and all that.

I am not sure how relevant it is to the present debate but I remember hearing about a similar issue in the Southern Faces DVD about the climbers in Wanaka "negotiating" for a happy outcome with NZAC (?) in publishing Rock Deluxe (?). After the mudslinging it seems that local routers in Wanaka may have gained access to some funds from the NZAC publication for sharing route information, which in turn was used to put up more routes. Can someone with some experience/information with this epsiode help me out here? JC?
Estey
7/05/2010
9:26:25 AM
I think it would good if a bit of cash trickled back down to new routers. However I don't think it is the guidebook editors role to facilitate this redistribution.

If Sydney climbers donated 1% of their petrol money into bolting and cliff maintenance then there would be enough to replace all the rusting shite on the old mountains classics as well as provide seed funding for new routes.

Own up free loaders.

pmonks
7/05/2010
9:49:27 AM
On 7/05/2010 Estey wrote:
>If Sydney climbers donated 1% of their petrol money into bolting and cliff
>maintenance then there would be enough to replace all the rusting shite
>on the old mountains classics as well as provide seed funding for new routes.

Having done a miniscule bit of both new routing and rebolting old classics, I can tell you that 100% of the money would be used for new routes.

Here's why: rebolting existing routes is as expensive and almost as much hard work as bolting new routes, but without any of the enjoyment or glory of a first ascent. I simply don't believe that many developers (Martin's friends included) are motivated by anonymous charity work - that's just not how most people are wired.

And yes, my hat goes off to Mikl, nmontieth and others who are engaged in the thankless job of repairing rotting old classics - they get far less credit than they deserve (no matter what you think of their other exploits).
yankinoz
7/05/2010
10:09:56 AM
Where are the bolting / re-bolting funds? Didn't Climbing Anchors try to do this in the past?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
7/05/2010
10:42:33 AM
BA wrote;
>I can't believe this thread. I mean, I really can't believe it! Where on earth did this line of thought come from?

Yes, it is rather unbelievable.
If the next generation is more concerned about the $ recompense in climbing than climbing for climbings sake, then we are sliding down a slope I would rather not go down.

>2. These people certainly put paid to the notion that people only do new routes to get their names in guidebooks, eh?

This 'new' notion also makes a mockery of all the previous threads that I tend to think are reasonably representative of views dealing with motivations to climb/climb for oneself/why put up routes?/etc,

On 7/05/2010 cruze wrote:
>the OP has presented his opinion, and recollection of events, in a mildly mannered way

True, and his beef was more about attitudes and 'bullying', but it is unfortunate that the example he has used is anathema to the majority of climbers.



~> Aye, wen I were a wee lad, an tha notion o installin bolts wa first raised, I alays knew nere good would com o'it...
Heh, heh, heh.


Post edit:
Have just re-read this thread...
I fully agree with Lee C's post, particularly;
>Personally I think it would be sad to see financial incentive being given to the development of these crags. It would no doubt result in faster development, shittier routes and most importantly less of these great creative experience left for the people that come after us. The focus would be on quantity rather than quality.


... and I also thought stugangs post of;
>Simey me mates did a noo root at araps once an ya put it in ya guide without asking me mates. It woz trad an they scratched their rps - woodyaz mind sendin em a noo set?

very funny.
hotgemini
7/05/2010
10:43:39 AM
There is the safercliffs initiative in WA, Vic and Qld.

It'd be fantastic to see it established in NSW, all it takes is one person committed enough to co-ordinate and promote it.

Are you that person?

(note: question to all readers, not just yankinoz)
onsight
7/05/2010
11:02:53 AM
On 7/05/2010 yankinoz wrote:
>Where are the bolting / re-bolting funds?

Contact the Sydney Rockclimbing Club.

kuu
7/05/2010
11:32:20 AM
On 7/05/2010 onsight wrote:
>On 7/05/2010 yankinoz wrote:
>>Where are the bolting / re-bolting funds?
>
>Contact the Sydney Rockclimbing Club.

With regard to re-bolting, take a look at: http://www.sydneyrockies.org.au/climbing/rebolting/rebolting.html
yankinoz
7/05/2010
11:52:21 AM
Simon and kuu - thanks - I've clipped a lot of those bolts. 'bout time I joined SRC...

Edit. I should say 1st July is 'bout time. ;-) - na - 20 bucks to access / bolting / etc. fair enough.
Estey
7/05/2010
11:54:28 AM
On 7/05/2010 pmonks wrote:
>On 7/05/2010 Estey wrote:
>>If Sydney climbers donated 1% of their petrol money into bolting and
>cliff
>>maintenance then there would be enough to replace all the rusting shite
>>on the old mountains classics as well as provide seed funding for new
>routes.
>
>Having done a miniscule bit of both new routing and rebolting old classics,
>I can tell you that 100% of the money would be used for new routes.
>
>Here's why: rebolting existing routes is as expensive and almost as much
>hard work as bolting new routes, but without any of the enjoyment or glory
>of a first ascent. I simply don't believe that many developers (Martin's
>friends included) are motivated by anonymous charity work - that's just
>not how most people are wired.
>

I'd like to think there is more altruism out there. Hats of to the Rockies, Climbing Anchors, Mikl etc who are actually fixing up old routes. My point is a lot more could be achieved if more people opened their wallets. I also think you could actually get more satisfaction fixing up a long forgotten route into something people will climb rather than putting up something of lesser quality. Each to their own.

rodw
7/05/2010
1:41:15 PM
On 7/05/2010 Estey wrote:
>I also think you could actually get more satisfaction fixing up a long forgotten
>route into something people will climb rather than putting up something
>of lesser quality. Each to their own.

Easier said than done, the politics in rebolting can be fierce..just look at many a chocky thread on the subject....alot easier to setup up new routes sometimes than putting up with that BS.

The good Dr
7/05/2010
1:41:24 PM
On 5/05/2010 Nmonteith wrote:
>On 5/05/2010 phm wrote:
>>@hipster - Bullying is exactly how it was described to me. ‘Give me the
>>info or else’.
>
>Or else what?

Reminds me of a film I once saw ... (the names have not been changed to protect anyone)

Simon 'Hans Blix' Carter: Then let me have the info, so I can ease the climbing communities collective mind. I'm sorry, but I must be firm with you. Give me the info, or else.
Route Developers (aka Kim Jong Il): Or else what?
Simon 'Hans Blix' Carter: Or else we will be very angry with you... and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are.

Such a mean, terrible bully, taking it all out on those saintly blackmailers.

ajfclark
7/05/2010
1:50:01 PM
Doesn't Hans Blix gets fed to sharks shortly after that?
psd
7/05/2010
2:14:41 PM
yes - and as a consequence the Kim Jong Il Developers sing "I'm so rone-rey"

I think we can all learn something from that ...

... and the dicks pussies and assholes speech, that is gold ....

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