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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 4 of 6. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 119
Author
OT: Human Rights Framework

Phil Box
3/05/2010
7:21:16 AM
Here's a bit of old Mr. Gormsby. He has the right attitude. ;))

evanbb
3/05/2010
8:37:47 AM
Now there seems to be a bit of excitement here about what Hendo has to say.

I personally thought his initial post was accurate, even if I don't think it's okay. Feet may have entered mouths since then, but I think the original idea was essentially ok.

IE, that cultures are different and that your familiar culture makes you happy. Other cultures are weird and make people unhappy. Whether or not this is okay is another topic altogether, but I agree that this will continue to be a source of tension as cultures collide.


I do also think there's a risk of ignoring culture completely, in an effort to be open minded and inclusive. I don't think this helps either. All people are a product of where they have come from and glazing over and averaging out these differences doesn't really help anyone.
Wendy
Online Now
3/05/2010
9:13:00 AM
On 2/05/2010 Sabu wrote:
>Back to a more general discussion while the lynch mob gets ready...
>
>I think a distinction between "racism" and "tolerance/intolerance" is
>needed. Racism is a very very strong word that gets thrown around too much.
>Hence my question earlier. I believe some people don't have an accurate
>grasp of what real racism entails. Even Wendy's examples strike me as isolated
>incidents over a few years, not bad for such a diverse country. Overall,
>I think Australians aren't afraid to stand up and say whats on their mind,
>hence you occasionally get situations where culture or race is brought
>into the equation. However, I doubt these are the result of deep seeded
>racist beliefs rather mere intolerances or frustrations that will dissipate
>when the footy comes on...
>
>Oh and for those interested, here's an example of the bigger picture which
>i was beginning to allude to, Australia does not even register on the scale
>in terms of comparison: http://www.sairr.org.za/sairr-today/sairr-today-press-release-sta
>ement-by-the-south-african-institute-of-race-relations-on-the-ramifications-of-the-killing
>of-eugene-terreblanche-6th-april-2010/

Is saying "we are not as racist as that" really a justification for being a bit racist? I mean, I beat my wife a little bit, but Johnny next door nearly killed his. We are lucky to have a stable, well off country (even if the benfits of that are rather unevenly distributed) and that fetters extreme actions somewhat. It doesn't mean the beliefs aren't there and don't present in less media worthy ways. And what exactly is the difference between racial intolerence and racism? Perhaps the word racism is scary. That doesn't mean we should use it, because it does fit. Have a nosey through these for perspectives on racism in Australia.

http://www.antar.org.au/node/221
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2588104.htm


And Hendo, I still haven't got a grasp of what exactly it is that is threatened by diversity in Australian culture. Except maybe something about language. Which is so not an issue. English is the only official language in Australia. It is the language of schools, work, business and the majority of social interactions across the country. The languages being lost in Australia are the indiginous languages, of which about 400 have already gone from an original number of about 600 and only about 35 have enough speakers to be likely to survive. And the NT govt just canned bilingual education - because apparantly it was getting in the way of these children learning English. These kids are having your experience in that restaurant everyday and they are supposed to be there to get an education.

In fact, please describe Australian culture to me. White people have only been here 222 years, which really isn't much in the light of the 35000, possible 120000 years of development of Aboriginal culture here. Not to mention how Australian culture has been shaped by the diversity of migrants here. There's no point claiming something is being threatened and displaced if you can't define or describe what it is. And whilst you might be feeling outnumbered in one suburb of Sydney, I'm sure you don't have to go far to have a completely different experience.

Wendy
Online Now
3/05/2010
9:37:27 AM
On 2/05/2010 Sabu wrote:
> Overall,
>I think Australians aren't afraid to stand up and say whats on their mind,
>hence you occasionally get situations where culture or race is brought
>into the equation. However, I doubt these are the result of deep seeded
>racist beliefs rather mere intolerances or frustrations that will dissipate
>when the footy comes on...
>

Another thought, Sabu, as a psychology student, I think it's rather important you find out more about these sort of things because presumably, you intend to be working with people whose everyday lives are affected by racist attiutes of others and by the assumptions built into our systems (of health, welfare, education) and experience these things as somewhat more than a passing intolerance that the footy will distract from. These goes for a bunch of other isms and things that don't have isms for them yet too.
hargs
3/05/2010
9:49:59 AM
"I think we have different value systems." -- Arthur
"Well mine's better." -- Ford
kieranl
3/05/2010
10:17:42 AM
On 1/05/2010 Hendo wrote:
>
>Racism is essentially universal. Unless you are blind or have some kind
>of other unusual attribute it is impossible to not distinguish people by
>their physical features. Hence, there are only levels of racism. Also a
>lot of the time racism is not bad and makes perfect sense.
>
DaveH says that Hendo is a "nice" guy (my quotes). A nice guy who, in his own words, says "a lot of the time racism is not bad".
Hendo, the "nice" guy, is supporting racism, just like lots of "nice" people in South Africa supported apartheid and "nice" people in the US south supported segregation. When I was growing up in country Victoria, misbehaving children were often threatened by their "nice" parents with "If you don't behave I'll give you to the blackfellas".
Hendo spouts a lot of words attempting self-justification but the quote above gives the game away; I didn't come on here and call Hendo a racist, he said it himself with those words.

Hendo
3/05/2010
10:48:13 AM
I think I should say a few things about my intentions. I have probably been in the academic world too long with its appeal of academic freedom in which no topic is beyond question, people should expect to have their ideas criticized without taking it too personally, use argumentative techniques like exaggeration, questions, scenarios and examples etc to think critically about an idea. And refraining from very personal attacks. I have been a bit silly here in blindly transferring this to the crazy world of the internet where this isnít the case. I can see that it can be wrong to so, especially without saying something like this first, so I am wrong here.

I realise this is sensitive topic and some people are going to get upset, this is not my intention. I do think that sensitive topics are in need of discussion not avoidance.

Some people might interpret my breaking down their statements into small points and criticising them as a personal attack but this is not the case this means I am enjoying considering your points. On the contrary I like having something to discuss. A lot of arguments seem to go backwards and forwards between Ďno you are wrong.í + maybe some personal attacks, followed by Ď here is my general viewÖí. This doesnít really achieve much. If you break down ideas and think critically you can get somewhere. It isnít usually realistic to think by discussing something that you will reverse a personís mindset, however if you reduce it to small points you may be able to get them to concede smaller things, discover a different viewpoint, realise you arenít as certain about parts of your opinion as you thought you were etc. So this is more my aim.

If too many people think this topic is too divisive (despite many people here preaching tolerance and acceptance), then I can shut up.

As for tolerance, I donít like blanket statements like this

On 3/05/2010 Phil Box wrote:
>By the way I hate intolerance in any way shape or form, I simply cannot
>tolerate intolerance.

because often associated with it is the idea that ĎI consider myself a person tolerant of everything, my greater tolerance of others makes me a better personí. Expect maybe some buddihst or hindu monk or similar who has reached their enlightenment and dissociation from the world, nobody is tolerant of everything and nor should they be. Should we get rid of a system of laws because we are going to tolerate people whatever then choose to do? Should we release everyone from jail? Should we let anyone and everyone into this country, no limits? Are you going to tolerate Mr Ferguson? I think it is clear that all people have limits to what they will tolerate, intolerance is not by definition bad. Though you might disagree with them, you must accept that other people are going to have different limits that are conceivably ok. If you are serious about somehow fully embracing all people then you must realise this. If you don't then this is a form of looking for some homogeneity in your views.

If you then accept that you do not tolerate everyone, then doesnít that mean you are not fundamentally different to me in your views, you just place your limits elsewhere?

Eduardo Slabofvic
3/05/2010
11:06:34 AM
On 1/05/2010 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>A climbing cultural invasion is an intriguing concept. We will have to
>stand up for our 'rights' or else PV/the system/already dispossessed minority
>group, may dispossess us!
>

Steady on now M9, this is no time to be raising the bolting issue, we're trying to have a discussion on values.
Wendy
Online Now
3/05/2010
11:21:20 AM
On 3/05/2010 Hendo wrote:
>I think I should say a few things about my intentions. I have probably
>been in the academic world too long with its appeal of academic freedom
>in which no topic is beyond question, people should expect to have their
>ideas criticized without taking it too personally, use argumentative techniques
>like exaggeration, questions, scenarios and examples etc to think critically
>about an idea. And refraining from very personal attacks. I have been a
>bit silly here in blindly transferring this to the crazy world of the internet
>where this isnít the case. I can see that it can be wrong to so, especially
>without saying something like this first, so I am wrong here.
>

I also have spent far too long in academia, and I'm wondering where is the well researched, evidence based, logical argument in your posts? A few general statements from your personal experience need a little more justification (even for me although I am strong influenced by the radical feminist personal is politcal perspective). I also don't think the academic world is immune to personal attacks, but it is true the internet is bound to get you plenty, but you aren't actually helping your cause much by repeating yourself and you certainly haven't elucidated a convincing rendition of your case here. This generally adds to the tendency of people to make personal attacks. But they are in general attacking the views expressed, not saying you are a nasty, double headed green monster.

>
>because often associated with it is the idea that ĎI consider myself a
>person tolerant of everything, my greater tolerance of others makes me
>a better personí. Expect maybe some buddihst or hindu monk or similar who
>has reached their enlightenment and dissociation from the world, nobody
>is tolerant of everything and nor should they be. Should we get rid of
>a system of laws because we are going to tolerate people whatever then
>choose to do? Should we release everyone from jail? Should we let anyone
>and everyone into this country, no limits? Are you going to tolerate Mr
>Ferguson? I think it is clear that all people have limits to what they
>will tolerate, intolerance is not by definition bad. Though you might disagree
>with them, you must accept that other people are going to have different
>limits that are conceivably ok. If you are serious about somehow fully
>embracing all people then you must realise this. If you don't then this
>is a form of looking for some homogeneity in your views.

People set limits based on beliefs and values. Everyone has boundaries of what is acceptable and not acceptable, and it is healthy to reflect on where there come from and why you hold them. This is not a reason for accepting everything or cultural relativism. It is about being able to cleary identify what are the problems you have with something, why they are problematic, what evidence supports your concerns with them, where did this information come from, how valid is it, etc etc etc. A good look at context is always helpful as well.


Phil Box
3/05/2010
11:29:48 AM
Hey hendo, my statement was not aimed at you mate. I have problems with people who preach tolerance yet they themselves are demonstrably not tolerant of any view not in accord with that which they perceive.

I also see racism being used as a political weapon and blunt instrument used to dissuade discussion and free speech.

I am not politically correct. I used to pull my head in and try to toe the party line but have decided that this is folly. Better that I speak my mind, if that upsets peoples sensibilities then meh. I have not tenure to protect. Amazing to me that uni students are pretty much pounded into only one way of thinking via political correctness.
Mr Milk
3/05/2010
11:59:47 AM
On 3/05/2010 Hendo wrote:
> I have probably
>been in the academic world too long with its appeal of academic freedom

Oh boy, this made me laugh. Hendo the self-proclaimed academic! Perhaps you ought to engage in your ill-imagined philosophising in private. Your arguments are absurd.
kieranl
3/05/2010
12:06:09 PM
On 3/05/2010 Hendo wrote:
>I think I should say a few things about my intentions. I have probably
>been in the academic world too long with its appeal of academic freedom
>in which no topic is beyond question, people should expect to have their
>ideas criticized without taking it too personally, use argumentative techniques
>like exaggeration, questions, scenarios and examples etc to think critically
>about an idea.
The academic freedom ploy. Academic arguments contain research and references to other work in the field. You have been expressing personal opinions. Discussions with your neighbours unless part of a well-designed research plan don't cut it.

>And refraining from very personal attacks. I have been a
>bit silly here in blindly transferring this to the crazy world of the internet
>where this isnít the case. I can see that it can be wrong to so, especially
>without saying something like this first, so I am wrong here.
So the "crazy world of the internet" is to blame for people not liking what you have to say.
Look mate, do you believe that "a lot of the time racism is not bad"? Or was that just an acadamic thesis?
This is not a theoretical world and I am not being "politically correct" to use PhilBox's sneering term. I just hate this stuff..

Hendo
3/05/2010
12:15:14 PM
Ok I am interested to ask people who see all racism as bad (black and white no inbetween) a question. No one seems to made clear statement on my other examples so Iíll try another. I donít really want to focus on particular groups but it helps to investigate a point so here goes.

The government has all sorts of policies specifically aimed at aboriginal people doing all sorts of things giving them extra funding, trying to give them extra access to education. There are education scholarships for aboriginal people only, aboriginal people are allowed to hunt various animals other cannot, go to restricted places others cannot. The list goes on. To me this clearly involves racism but I donít necessarily see it is bad. Do you see this as racism? Do you see it as bad and should it be stopped? Can you recognise that it is plausible to view this as racism and plausible to not see it as bad?

I would be interested for people to specifically address the above questions.
Mr Milk
3/05/2010
12:30:12 PM
Throughout this entire pointless diatribe you continually confuse racism with racial prejudice. Your argument keeps returning to this farcical definitional pedantry. Yes, racism can mean racial differentiation, however in the context of this situation, it denotes racial prejudice. Yes, one can discriminate between different types of apples, as well as between racial groups. Your point is absurd and only suggests a complete lack of imagination.

Allocating resources to marginalised racial groups is racial differentiation.

Wishing to suppress the cultural freedom of others as you advocate is racial prejudice.

Present a valid argument or move on.
kieranl
3/05/2010
12:43:52 PM
Ditto with Mr Milk.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
3/05/2010
12:47:12 PM
On 3/05/2010 Phil Box wrote:
>By the way I hate intolerance in any way shape or form, I simply cannot tolerate intolerance.

~> and here was I thinking that the above statement was not only alliteration, but also tongue in cheek irony/stirring...
It now seems to me from a later post by PB, that PB is serious about this.
~> The internet can be a confusing place to have a debate, as much nuance is lost in the literal typed word.
I definitely wouldn't cut it having a debate on this topic in that Pauline H- redne- qurank state!
Heh, heh, heh.



From the Sabu link earlier;
The failure of sensible South Africans to take back the racial middle ground in the country will be serious. Polarisation will beget further racial conflict and a hardening of attitudes on all sides. This is perhaps the greatest leadership test that the current Government has faced and it is one that they cannot afford to fail.

- Frans Cronje


The same could be applied to Chockstone in the context of this thread?

Hendo
3/05/2010
12:58:21 PM
Ok clearly we have apply the word racism to different things.

On 3/05/2010 Mr Milk wrote:
>Throughout this entire pointless diatribe you continually confuse racism
>with racial prejudice.

I don't quite understand this. Do you mean racism and racial prejudice are mutually exclusive? If so that seems a very odd way of using those words and different to what I would expect many to think.

>Your argument keeps returning to this farcical definitional
>pedantry.

Well my point is that things aren't black and white. How do you define your sharp demarcation between racial prejudice and non-racial prejudice? Because I see there is blurriness I don't think you can just say something is racist and then that implicitly implies it is bad without any justification.

>Wishing to suppress the cultural freedom of others as you advocate is
>racial prejudice.

What if there are non aboriginal people living on a sensitive environmental area eating endangered plants/animals and a law is passed to say nobody can go there and eat various things except traditional owners and maybe those with special government permission because the area needs to be protected . In removing that person from their home does that not count as some form of suppression of their culture? I'm not so sure there isn't blurring between racial differentiation and racial prejudice.
widewetandslippery
3/05/2010
1:02:09 PM
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training, you will be a weapon. You will be a minister of death praying for war. But until that day you are pukes. You are the lowest form of life on Earth. You are not even human, f---ing beings. You are nothing but unorganized grabastic pieces of amphibian shit. Because I am hard you will not like me. But the more you hate me the more you will learn. I am hard but I am fair. There is no racial bigotry here. I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers. Here you are all equally worthless. And my orders are to weed out all non-hackers who do not pack the gear to serve in my beloved Corps. Do you maggots understand that?

rodw
3/05/2010
1:13:15 PM
I think people like to get all self rightious on this issue no matter what side they sit. Kinda like arguing NRL is better than AFL, we all know NRL is better but some ppl just cant see it because they were bought up in a society/family that just dosnt see the truth.

Just look at your self and your actions, be ya pro abo or not...if you can sleep at night, sleep well, if not maybe do a bit of self reflection, rather than sceaming to everyone else to change there ways...just my opinion of course and dont really care if you agree or not.

Btw I sleep well.

Eduardo Slabofvic
3/05/2010
1:13:21 PM
Is that you John Wayne

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