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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author
When does abandoned gear become booty?

Mike
13-Jun-2002
5:26:40 PM
Last weekend we were out at Araps and the Gramps and twice had occasion to see or hear about abandoned gear. The first instance was a couple of abseil set ups left at Summer Day Valley. There was no one at the crag and the car park was all but empty. We left the gear where it lay. The second instance was at Araps where a frantic dude told us he'd left an abseil/belay station, this time involving a considerable amount of gear, a top Mantis overnight. He had returned to claim it around lunchtime the following day. Why he waited so long I'm not sure. Why indeed he left it there in the first place I'm also not sure, since a little rain would hardly make retrieval impossible. Never-the-less, his gear was gone.

Many years ago I did the classic beginner mistake and overcammed a friend on a popular climb. I returned to the base thinking to grab another nut tool and head back up. In the meantime the next party behind ours saw the problem, retrieved the cam, and kept it for themselves. I was a trifle miffed at the time, but figured that was the local ethic and it would teach me for making such a rookie mistake. Certainly I haven't overcammed a unit again. Conversely I've since found numerous abandoned placements, such as fixed nuts, dropped pieces, old hexes fallen into cracks, etc. As I'm sure the vast majority of climbers have. Whether or not you'd trust a booty piece is another issue.

However all of this begs the question: when does abandoned gear become booty?

At what point would you draw the line? An old fixed nut obviously booty if you can be bothered. But what about a couple of shinny new pieces that have be left behind, possibly fallen out of someone's pack? Booty? Post a lost & found notice? Leave it in place? What about bail gear found halfway up a route? Or the aforementioned case of the whole belay station left unattended overnight?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
17-Jun-2002
6:50:11 PM
1. If its on a climb and unattended then its booty, unless someone informs you that its theirs and they are returning for it; -> then if the 'claim by' date lapses it potentially becomes booty.

2. If its lost on a marked trail then handing it to authorities is fair, since if its not claimed within a time limit it becomes your 'booty'.

3. If its in the wilderness then its booty, unless you go by (2.) above. Stashed gear does not fit this catagory, and gear thieves could/should get lethal treatment. Anyone who stashes gear should expect the possibility of losing it though!

4. Lost & found notices have their place, but a reasonable time limit should apply for answers, ... Say 1 month, ... -> then it becomes booty.

5. If you want booty then dig up a deceased gearfreak. I heard they get buried with their stuff!

6. Don't mess with karma. What goes around comes around.


Donut King
18-Jun-2002
9:43:19 AM
Stuff local ethics, if you see someone take your gear appraoach them!

Where did these people leave there stuff, Summer Day valley???? What a place to leave your gear...that just silly. Like leaving the keys in your car outside the Mill while you go do some climbing...youre asking for it.

I know some people that leave gear behing for a day or two, even a week in some cases, between attempts, but its not on the Bard or such.

Would anyone really take gear hanging from pitch 2 of Serpentine or some preplaced gear from Contra thinking it had been left behind as booty???

The Blond Gecko
18-Jun-2002
5:28:41 PM
The only piece of booty I've picked up was a #10 WC Rock that was dropped down the back of a narrow offwidth at the back of Satan's Smokestack at Frog Buttress. I have no problems in taking gear when it is obvious that the owner has "lost" it - that is, got it stuck, or dropped it in a hard-to-reach place (it took me about 30 minutes "fishing" with my nut tool attached to a prusik and about 1.5m of cord to hook this particular piece of gear out). However, I would seriously hesitate in treating a complete belay setup such as the above, or a route full of gear, as "booty" - I might collect it, but I would have serious worries about my karma if I didn't try to find out who it belonged to, or at least leave a message with my phone number. Basically, if it's difficult to remove, it's booty. If it's easy to remove, then there could be any number of reasons why it was left there, many of which would make it morally very questionable to just take it. That's my 2.2 cents.

Tristan

"On climb, belay when ready."

Donut King
20-Jun-2002
11:55:43 PM
i guess if its there and you take it, then if the climber who owns it comes along (if he/she can find you) and gives you shit about it, then you do what ever you feel is right.

How many long metal pointy things do you need though?

if you steal belay set ups then some one puts a rock through your side window well then its as many poster have stated before...that karma thingo....cant really bitch about though can you.....

adski
24-Jun-2002
3:23:47 PM
Q - When does abandoned gear become booty?
A - On Monday Morning when the weekenders go home!

nyuk nyuk!

I've been woken at Araps early Monday morning from groups of permanents coming back (!) from the classics having scored booty and singing "it's booty time, booty time, across the USA". It's an classic song that referred to another kind of desirable booty..

If you should wish to become a full-time booty catcher, the best climbs to find it are popular classics where new leaders are pulling up inexperienced, usually first-time seconders.

To illustrate where booty can be found, I''ve scored the following:

#7 wallnut, Brolga, Araps, easy clean
#5 rock, Castle Crag, Araps, easy clean
#2 rock, Little Thor, Araps, hammer required
#1 flexi-cam, Libretto, Araps, 2x nut tools + hammer required
quickdraw on first ring (!), centennial glen
#6 rock, Barad Dur, Tarana, Blue Mtns, easy clean
set of #1-5 super-rocks on a crab, 5m away from the base of the cliff, Booroomba Rocks
#2 quadcam, Maharajah, Mt Buffalo, almost fell out
etc.

I also stumbled across a dozen unused ring bolts + abseil ropes in a cave at the top of Pierces Pass in the Blue Mountains. I left these of course so ppl could finish equipping their new routes.

And in the spirit of yin-yang to balance out the booty, I left a couple of micro-nuts on XI on second because I had no nut tool and couldn't retrieve them without damaging the wires. Fair trade I say!

Stretch
23-Sep-2002
1:04:52 AM
I can offer some booty for anyone going to Arapiles shortly.
Last weekend I dropped a blue anodized kong quickdraw off the top of Eagles cleft while removing belay anchors.
It landed at the top of the second pitch and was getting too dark to retrieve.
Warning : Not a great climb as the 2nd pitch is covered in bat poo and wee making chimney quite slippery...
If you believe in bad karma, I would gladly have it back. If not, add it to your rack and keep climbing....

nmonteith
23-Sep-2002
9:24:05 AM
On many routes in OZ there are 'fixed' wires and pitons which are not booty. Check the guide, if it refers to 'fixed gear' then you shoudl leave it alone. Ozymandias at Buffalo has a heap of fixed wires in the first three pitchs. Some are more like copperhead - bashie placments as they have been hammered into the smallest of seams. I reckon if you get a cam out, and it takes you awhile then its yours. If its just forgotten by the party from above, or dropped by them then it would be fairer to do a deal with them. Maybe just ask for a 'biner or a wire as 'payment' for your booty retrivial. A cam is an expensive piece of equipment.

alrob
28-Sep-2002
11:57:57 AM
Just got back from our trip to arapiles. Scored 2 booty nuts on watchtower crack. the first was halfway up the first pitch, and took about 10 minutes with nut tool and rock to extract. The other was at the belay at the top of the third pitch, sill in place in the horizontal crack. Used it as part of belay setup. The funniest thing was that when the belayer pulled apart the setup, and tried to get the nut out, it popped out and fell to the belay ledge at the top of the first pitch. On the rap down i got it back, looked brand new too. We figure it was a case of bad seconding, not being able to clean properly.

There was also a fixed nut in the cave belay at the second pitch, thats never coming out i don't think.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
11-Oct-2002
10:37:11 PM
G'day nmonteith,
When did you do Ozy and find it cluttered with fixed gear (or should I say rubbish)? ... as last time I was there the route was relatively clean regarding fixed gear.
It had the occasional fixed pitons that looked old enough to be the originals, plus a hex with faded green tape and a fixed wire in the main roof of Ozy direct; but that was about the extent of it.
Its a shame if someone has been thoughtless enough to 'bashie' their way up it, as well as being inconsiderate of others, by not cleaning all those (excellent) RP placements.
I am hoping for a return trip to it this season and would be disappointed to find it a 'clip-up'. I figure the route lends itself to Leeper cam hooks, but this would not be possible if the placements are full of 'used' bashies.
As far as booty goes, this is a good route to do after someone has had an epic.
I have scored a few stoppers and a quickdraw off the route and a couple of RPs at the base (obviously dropped), from my sojourns there in the past !
ima.seriousyoungliza
29-Aug-2016
12:38:05 PM
>>>I am hoping for a return trip to it this season and would be disappointed to find it a 'clip-up'

>>>the placements are full of 'used' bashies.

...so what did you actually find on the route in relation to said expected bashies ? ...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
29-Aug-2016
8:41:31 PM
On 29/08/2016 ima.seriousyoungliza wrote:
>>>>I am hoping for a return trip to it this season and would be disappointed
>to find it a 'clip-up'
>
>>>>the placements are full of 'used' bashies.
>
>...so what did you actually find on the route in relation to said expected bashies ? ...

Are you stalking me hexy?
Two necrophiliac threads in two days and you have chosen my posts to resurrect them? ~> Pick on your own contributions from that time period!
Heh, heh, heh.

However to be polite; - re 'similar to bashies fixed gear', ... I did do the route again and found none(!), but didn't think it worth mentioning at the time, as nm is entitled to his opinion.
... In fact I've done the route again-again since then, and in my opinion I find the challenge of the roof on Ozy Direct is the most affected by fixed gear, as it would seem more often than not (at least in my after-events-observation), that seconds sacrifice gear there; possibly as they are inexperienced in cleaning aid on traverses.
robbio
1-Sep-2016
10:57:01 PM
This thread takes me back about 9 years ago, i was climbing at Bundaleer with a friend Phil Armstrong, and we came across Henry Barber.

Later in the day, Henry and his climbing partner were climbing some multipitch, but bailed from the top of the first pitch because pitch 2 was pretty wet. My friend and I climbed the same climb, and located the "bail setup" that i presume Henry placed and abbed off. It consisted of nothing but one largish nut and biner, nicely seated in the rock for an outward pull. Only thing was that abbing off it placed a downward load on it, making my partner and i really question the safety of such a bail piece. After 10 seconds my friend shifted the nut to an awesome (and very obvious) placement, set for a downward pull, which would have been much better, as good as one piece could be, anyways. We then retrieved the nut and biner, climbed through the wet stuff to the top, and were happy to give the gear back to them when we got to the bottom, since they were still around.

We couldn't believe that someone with a lifetime of climbing experience would trust abbing off one badly placed nut. But what do i know...
Jayford4321
2-Sep-2016
5:39:48 PM
On 1/09/2016 robbio wrote:
>This thread takes me back (an then some stuff bout Onray Barba) But what do i know...
>
Did U get his autograph?
Pity if U dint, as it mighta been a limited edition soon afta if U had, an ther4 worth $.

Drake
3-Sep-2016
4:23:46 PM
>>> We couldn't believe that someone with a lifetime of climbing experience would trust abbing off one badly placed nut. But what do i know...

Yo robbio,

I would speculate that the party did use both pieces for the first abseiler, loading only one piece, with the other as a backup. After the first abseiler got down on the first piece without dying, the second abseiler cleaned the backup piece and went down protected only by the first piece. That's complete speculation, of course, and doesn't explain why they didn't choose the obvious placement for the primary piece.... but this kind of temporary backup is fairly common practice for bailing.

Doug
4-Sep-2016
5:53:52 PM
"When does ABANDONED gear become booty?"
Caps lock on for "abandoned" for emphasis. To me, the word "abandoned" has a sense of permanence attached to it, e.g. when one abandons ship. If you look the word up in the dictionary or in a thesaurus, "forsaken" is generally the first thing that pops up.
This is a bigger thing than just leaving something behind temporarily.
Oftentimes a leader climbs with a second who is not so competent at removing gear and going down to retrieve it could make for all sorts of logistical complications, so the leader decides to leave it for the time being, thinking that he will go back and pick it up sometime soon.
I guess if it subsequently disappears, then that's the way it goes. But if someone bags a piece and then boasts about it back in camp and a: the person who left it there can demonstrate it was theirs and b: they had good reason for leaving it and c: they had the intention of going back for it, then it comes down to how reasonable or how greedy and selfish the person is who retrieved it.

There are 16 messages in this topic.

 

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