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O.T. - Cage Match Revisited - Denial and Religion

Brazened

13-Dec-2009
6:52:15 PM

>>I think your forgetting that Kevin Rudd is a Christian too.
>
>Yes. But only to buy votes.

I would never be that judgmental, even if he is a politician. Friends of mine have known
him for many years and believe that he is. The evidence definitely suggest that he is a
Christian and has been a church goer for years. I suggest you do your own research
before making a false statement, no matter how tempting. :)

>
>Are the waves right handers or left handers? Rideable? Are their holes
>because they are dirty great tubes? They sound like nice waves. If I was
>a journalist (or surfer) I would be looking for more too.
>

Oh dear resorting to condescension you must be getting desperate. :P
I was actually quoting a channel 9 journalist, but you obviously missed the news, sorry
forgot to add in the footnotes.

>There is a whole thread devoted to this. We dont need another one.

Agreed I didn't start this! ;)

>
>Seeing as the Montreal Protocol banned most things that cause the hole
>there is little doubt that recovery should be starting soon, or has started
>(?). Dont think full recovery is expected until mid-century though. Research
>the topic. You can photograph the ozone hole so there should be good data
>on what it is doing.
>

I think citationx answered this well enough, he's done the research. Thanks! :)

>Not Sen. Steve Fielding. Thats my tip of the day.

Don't really know him and have never supported him.

>Not necessarily the U.S. but predominantly the U.S. There is a petition
>of 'scientists' who dont believe in AGW. Track that down and look at the
>proprtion of them that are yanks.
>

What is the % of U.S. scientists who do believe in AGW? If you can provide this and
compare maybe then I could understand your argument. But a blanket generalized
statement does not make a case. What % of Scientists in the world does the U.S. have
compared to the rest of the world? If you can answer these questions I'd agree with you
no problem.

Actually this may shock you if you'd researched it.
The following link states that in a poll taken in 1991 95% of U.S. scientists believe in
evolution not creationism. Does this mean they've all changed dramatically within 18
years to become Christians?

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA111.html

Alot of the objections that I've been hearing and reading have come from the U.K and
Europe.

I tend to think that it this has much more to do with Money than religion.


gordoste

13-Dec-2009
8:45:02 PM

> It does seems strange that they shold believe so strongly in something that has no evidence, and yet deny the existence of something for which there is arguably, a lot of evidence.

they'd say the same about people who deny the existence of God.

here is an excellent article i read today

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/12/trust_scientists


wallwombat

13-Dec-2009
9:29:56 PM

>> It does seems strange that they shold believe so strongly in something
>that has no evidence, and yet deny the existence of something for which
>there is arguably, a lot of evidence.

>On 13/12/2009 gordoste wrote:
>they'd say the same about people who deny the existence of God.

I'd be very interested in hearing their evidence for God's existence. I could do with a bit of a chuckle.


GravityHound

14-Dec-2009
6:23:46 AM

brazened, in case there was confusion, most of my comments were tongue in cheek. the one about the holes in waves was because I am so over the media coverage, and especially the way they find any little discrepency and turn it into headline news, of the Copenhagen thing.

the proportion of americans, well that was serious but this really isnt the place to debate that.

GH


evanbb

14-Dec-2009
7:02:12 AM

On 13/12/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>I'd be very interested in hearing their evidence for God's existence.
>I could do with a bit of a chuckle.

Butterflies and sunshine are clear evidence. Beer, that was made by God. Climbing, I think, was invented by Jesus. It was part of a good deity/bad deity routine. God felt a little guilty about drowning everyone except Noah, so he sent his only son. While he was here, Jesus did some FFA's of long standing problems and established the early clean-climbing revolution. Was a bold solo-ist also. Climbing is a lot less scarey when you're dad is God.

hero

14-Dec-2009
8:34:26 AM

On the concept of God as a climber. From an old THE magazine.

‘I first met God at Arapiles. Or should I say Him as his son. I was never really good with the concept of trinity and stuff. Never believed in God neither. That is till I met him.

I was walking up Central gully, up past Feral Chicken, when I ran into Paul coming down. We exchanged the normal climbing small talk; How’s it going...watch'a been doing...where you off to? You know, the in depth stuff.

There was this guy with him, really goofy looking. Big floral shorts and a white singlet that said `Just Do Me'. Paul said "Oh James, I'd like you to meet God." He's from the states. And smiled. When ever any one says that to me it's like being given a ticket to a big sarcasm festival.
"Yeah" I said "Garth, was that your name."
"No dude. It's God. G - O - D. Like Dog backwards."
"Whew. You still talk to your parents?"
"I never had any." Matter of factly.
"Sorry man" I said.

Paul took me aside. "James, this really is God. You know. G -O - D. god. God. Like in the ads in TV.
"Bull sh1t Paul. You know there is no such thing as God."
"James, I'm telling you...Watch. Hey God."
"Yeah Paul."
"What about a little evidence for my friend here?"
"No problem," God said. "Follow me." We did.

We walked around to the front of XI pinnacle. Paul turned to God. "The kiddies have been a bit silly about this climb God. Putting bolts in and chopping them out."
"Aw, bogus man."
"Is there any thing you can do to fix it?" asked Paul.
"No problemo" said God, "All done."
"What's all done?" I enquired.
"All the bolt scars at Arapiles are healed." said God.
"Yeah, like I'll just solo up here and check shall I?"
"If you'd like man" said GOD.
"If I could solo XI, that would be a miracle. I'm not convinced. I'd like a more tangible miracle, if you can possible manage it."
"Ouch. Paul, your friend's lack of faith does hurt me...but, it you want..."

Just around from us some young guys had been setting up a top rope of Strolling. They'd got it all ready and one was tied in. Suddenly he said. "You know, fvck this. I'm sick of this boring top roping stuff. I'd like to lead something."
"You mean lead this" his friend said.
"No, I mean lead something I can do onsight. Lets see. I can climb 29 in the gym...I'll go and try a fifteen. And I better make it a crack so I can find protection."
"Sounds like fun. Count me in. I'm sick of all this sport climbing bull sh1t anyway." Off they walked to pull the ropes.

I turned to Paul and God. "OK. I'm convinced. Pleased to meet you God."
Paul said "I'm starved. Let's stop for lunch."
"Excellent" said God. "He pulled out a piece of orange peel from his pack and turned it into three Shish Tavuks and a six pack of Old."
"Wow" I said, to no one in particular. "This guy's really good."
"No" said Paul, "This guy's really God.


Climboholic

14-Dec-2009
8:42:52 AM

God doesn't exist... He told me so himself.

jimfalla

14-Dec-2009
10:30:43 AM

Ah, they were the days....

"the", "farce" and a real belief that "sport" climbing was just a passing fad.

I was never lucky enough to meet god when He visited Arapiles, but I know someone who said they did.

looking through my plie of old 'these' (is that the plural of 'the'?) still brings giggles and smiles. Thanks for them.


gordoste

14-Dec-2009
3:30:43 PM

On 13/12/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>I'd be very interested in hearing their evidence for God's existence.
>I could do with a bit of a chuckle.

pick the most beautiful thing you can think of and ask "what are the chances of that occurring without the guidance of an omnipotent, conscious entity?"
apparently it works for a lot of people


wallwombat

14-Dec-2009
3:56:17 PM

On 14/12/2009 gordoste wrote:

>pick the most beautiful thing you can think of and ask "what are the chances
>of that occurring without the guidance of an omnipotent, conscious entity?"

Hypotheticlly speaking, what if the most beautiful thing I can think of is an "omnipotent, conscious diety"?

What created the omnipotent conscious diety, then?

What if the most beautiful thing I can think of is a Shakespeare sonnet? Or a book by Richard Dawkins or a piece of pornography?

Where the creation of these things guided by an "omnipotent conscious diety"?

What if I was an psychopathic anti-semite and I thought the Holocaust was the most beautiful thing I could think of?

"Omnipotent conscious diety" again?


billk

14-Dec-2009
3:57:25 PM

On 12/12/2009 hero wrote:
>>Swine, how does it feel to hold similar views to the majority of Americans?
>

Swine is an independent thinker and doesn't follow anyone else on anything.


gordoste

14-Dec-2009
5:13:34 PM

On 14/12/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>Hypotheticlly speaking, what if the most beautiful thing I can think of
>is an "omnipotent, conscious diety"?
>
>What created the omnipotent conscious diety, then?

Then you would have good reason not to believe in God, but that's just a hypothetical after all.

>What if the most beautiful thing I can think of is a Shakespeare sonnet?
> Or a book by Richard Dawkins or a piece of pornography?
>
>Where the creation of these things guided by an "omnipotent conscious
>diety"?

Two possible arguments spring to mind:
1. The beautiful thing is not the actual man-made object but the emotion it inspires. Some would argue that the existence of emotions is proof of God.
2. All of these are inspired in some way by natural phenomena that were created by God.

I have to admit I find it hard to argue very convincingly as I do not agree myself. But I do like playing Devil's advocate (no pun intended).

>What if I was an psychopathic anti-semite and I thought the Holocaust
>was the most beautiful thing I could think of?
>
>"Omnipotent conscious diety" again?

You made this too easy.
1. If you truly thought that was beautiful then yes that would be proof of a God that values beauty.
2. The existence of great evil could easily justify the existence of an omnipotent conscious deity, who just happens to be evil.

>It is believed now that there are a billion billion planets in the universe.
>So if the chance of life occurring on any given planet is one in a billion,
>then there would be a billion planets in the universe with life on them.
>
>There's some chance for you.

That is a very poor argument. What if the chances are one in a billion billion? Then there would only be one planet with life on it. I don't even see how this relates to the topic at hand, although I am happy for you to explain.


wallwombat

14-Dec-2009
6:28:56 PM

To tell you the truth , I don't know why I whacked that in at the end. It's something I read recently. I may have been intending to go on with it but I got a phone call and just pressed OK. If I'd have thought about it I probably would have deleted that bit. (Actually, I have deleted that bit)

Why exactly is the existence of beautiful things PROOF there is a God who designed them?

There is no logic in it. Beautiful things do not prove the existence of God; they prove the existence of beautiful things.

Wendy

14-Dec-2009
9:54:44 PM

Not to mention beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


Zebedee

14-Dec-2009
11:01:28 PM

On 14/12/2009 gordoste wrote:
>pick the most beautiful thing you can think of and ask "what are the chances
>of that occurring without the guidance of an omnipotent, conscious entity?"
>apparently it works for a lot of people
She's sixteen beautiful and innocent, coated in bacon fat and naked and willing but some how I think she may have been created by the other guy

Wendy

15-Dec-2009
7:33:15 AM

On 14/12/2009 Zebedee wrote:
>On 14/12/2009 gordoste wrote:
>>pick the most beautiful thing you can think of and ask "what are the
>chances
>>of that occurring without the guidance of an omnipotent, conscious entity?"
>>apparently it works for a lot of people
>She's sixteen beautiful and innocent, coated in bacon fat and naked and
>willing but some how I think she may have been created by the other guy

Now I realise you're not usually backward in making offensive comments, but can you at least make her a legal age so I don't get pissed off again at the way men sexualise young girls? It's really very wrong. And what is with the bacon fat anyway?


wallwombat

15-Dec-2009
9:09:36 AM

On 15/12/2009 Wendy wrote:
>.....but can you at least make her a legal age

16 is the legal age of consent in every Australian state except South Australia and Tasmania where it is 17.

widewetandslippery

15-Dec-2009
9:34:08 AM

If you don't get bacon fat you get nothing. Bacon fat is from the otherworldly creature the pig that provides for all people the gloriousness of pork, ham, bacon, trotters, crackle and dripping.

mmmmm dripping.........

hero

15-Dec-2009
9:41:11 AM

www. obviously you're jewish or islamic?


voodoo

15-Dec-2009
9:45:11 AM

On 14/12/2009 gordoste wrote:
>pick the most beautiful thing you can think of and ask "what are the chances
>of that occurring without the guidance of an omnipotent, conscious entity?"
>apparently it works for a lot of people

And to take the logical next step, think of all the unpleasant things in the world - such as, say, onchocerciasis caused by an equally 'beautiful' large tissue roundworm that burrows under the skin and leads to permanent blindess. Sending millions of children blind... by the same logic that 'proves' his existence, I guess this God of theirs must also be a total prick.

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