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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Poll Option Votes Graph
Athiest 90
69% 
Buddhist 5
4% 
Christian 23
18% 
Muslim 1
1% 
Jewish 1
1% 
Hindu 1
1% 
Other 8
6% 
Don't know due too many choices. 2
2% 

 Page 5 of 11. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 206
Author
O.T - Religion & Climbing Poll.
Wendy
4/12/2009
8:55:19 PM
On 4/12/2009 foreverabumbly wrote:

>
>this was kinda my point, you cant define science using religion, and I
>dont believe you can define religion using science, hence why trying to
>do so would be bad science.

But no one is trying to use religion to define science. For that matter, they aren't trying to use science to define religion. Religion (and/or linguists) define religion, then science has a good old look at it and says what it thinks from it's perspective. And vice versa. Religion can say it thinks science is a load of crock if it want. Preferably with some form of coherant argument about why.

>
> We need some way of assessing the difference
>>between these claims to religious knowledge and "legitimate" claims to
>>religious knowledge.
>>
>well, we will all know; or I guess not not, when we die.

I'll be in so much trouble if I'm wrong after all this ... ;)
Wendy
4/12/2009
9:00:03 PM
On 4/12/2009 rodw wrote:

>
>Just remember whatever you believe/disbelieve dosnt make you smarter,
>nicer, better than the next person...its how you treat the next man that
>counts..now its time for a group hug :)
>

:)

Chuck Norris
4/12/2009
9:11:01 PM
On 4/12/2009 Wendy wrote:

>
>I'll be in so much trouble if I'm wrong after all this ... ;)

Me too but I've got a certificate from the pope excusing me from purgatory cos I walked the camino de santiago in a holy year.

camjammer
4/12/2009
9:13:11 PM
On this topic, I been meaning to try and get climbing defined as a religion, mainly for taxation purposes.

When you look at it climbing has many elements in common with religions -
A seemingly irrational belief that our activities (climbing rocks) has an actual purpose.
Zealots who try and convert the heathens to our cause.
Days specifically set aside so that we can practice our beliefs (called weekends).
A sense of elation and moving to a higher plane of consciousness after completing certain climbs.
A number of bickering factions that seem common to most religions (trad v sport v boulder v etc).
Our own places of worship and objects involved in this worship (gear).

I'm sure there are more similarities out there. If anyone knows the Taxation Department rules on how to become a religion the sooner we'll be able to get all our gear tax free and claim climbing trip as religious holidays.

You know it makes more sense than most other religions already

JamesMc
4/12/2009
9:55:52 PM
Most gods don't belive in climbers so why should climbers believe in gods?

JamesMc

SwineOfTheTimes
4/12/2009
10:04:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjGkRFFBd0A&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_E0vfP79yE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyXIeB1qI6w&feature=related

If you want to watch the whole show

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197#

Religion is Slavery

Sarah Gara
4/12/2009
10:23:14 PM
I've met two practising Buddhists. One of whom came to our house for dinner and ate pork I didn't realise they were Buddhist until afterwards and when I asked her why she didn't tell me and not eat the meat she said that it was more important to embrace my culture and not offend my family by refusing food and that Buddhism wasn't about absolutes but about making choices and living a good life in a way where your actions benefit others. I don't whether all Buddhists are like this but I thought it was a nice concept.

I picked other. I'm a Humanist, although I did for a while contemplate joining the church of the flying spaghetti monster x

Zebedee
4/12/2009
10:29:52 PM
On 4/12/2009 foreverabumbly wrote:
>for example is not questioning my faith, thats ridiculing me. There seems
>to be a double standard applied to these sort of discussions, if I talk
>about my faith, Im jamming it down peoples throat - people dont mind me
>being religious but Im not aloud to talk about it. Yet if you have no faith,
>its a free for all, Athiest feel its a given right to jam their convictions
>where ever they please.
Oh Right it's all those evangelical Athiests knocking on your door spouting inane rubbish about your mortality being threatened. I'll jam my convictions where ever I want but I won't be targeting vunerable people and I won't be threatening a fate worse than death and I won't be saying my way or burn for eternity or eternal resurrection as a toad. Yes I think I am right that's the nature of belief, but for thrusting, threatening, maiming and murdering in attempt to convert you can't go past religion. ( There have been athiest mass murders but they have had different aims, evil, but different aims.)

ambyeok
4/12/2009
11:35:54 PM
On 4/12/2009 SwineOfTheTimes wrote:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjGkRFFBd0A&feature=related

Part 1 says "from the perspective of the northern hemisphere", talks about the sun's movement then says "the sun resides in the vicinity of the southern cross". Eh? I smell something that stinks here.

SwineOfTheTimes
4/12/2009
11:47:41 PM
On 4/12/2009 ambyeok wrote:

>Part 1 says "from the perspective of the northern hemisphere", talks about
>the sun's movement then says "the sun resides in the vicinity of the southern
>cross". Eh? I smell something that stinks here.
Ever spent any time in the middle east?
Last time I was there the cross was on show. Don't think it's changed.

evanbb
5/12/2009
6:24:21 AM
On 4/12/2009 foreverabumbly wrote:

>but if you cant define spiritual things using scientific processes then
>how are you able to demonstrate areas that they dont exist?

No one is trying to disprove spiritual things; which would largely be personal experience. But scientists/science is always trying to describe phenomena accurately. So it's not a war, but scientists want to keep knowing new things and religion and spirituality is the opposite of that; belief in the unknowable.

So as science and religion have wandered along together over the years, scientific knowledge has slowly chipped away at describing the world around; so the unknowable bits get smaller and smaller. The Bible contains descriptions that can determine the age of the Earth. Who in 4000BC would have known how to calculate the age of the Earth? So this was considered unknowable and became an article of faith. Then someone got a good handle on optics and entropy and seriously challenged the long held ideas.

There have been long periods too when Christian religious bodies have actively suppressed science, for exactly the reason above. The more science knows the less the Church have to play with. I'd be interested to know how Islam and science went back in the day, I think there were some pretty serious mathematicians in early Islam.


Personally, I think religious bodies are completely absurd, deeply hypocritical and self serving. But, I think Jesus was probably a pretty awesome guy and had lots of excellent ideas about how people should be nice to each other. Do unto others is a pretty good start for an ethics system. The Church and the lunatics who have run it over the years have made up other rules as they went along to serve their own purposes. It does my head in how followers have stopped following the religion and started following the institution.
scarecrow
5/12/2009
8:30:02 AM
Agnostic!
Should be on the list - atheism is all well and good but I bet half of that 70% would chose agnostic if they
knew what it really meant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Essentially, its saying that to believe there's a higher power is difficult, but I won't get in the way of
others, I'll happily sit here and just live my own life. Slightly less 'reverse bible bashing' than atheism.

ambyeok
5/12/2009
10:21:07 AM
On 4/12/2009 SwineOfTheTimes wrote:
>On 4/12/2009 ambyeok wrote:
>
>>Part 1 says "from the perspective of the northern hemisphere", talks
>about
>>the sun's movement then says "the sun resides in the vicinity of the
>southern
>>cross". Eh? I smell something that stinks here.
>Ever spent any time in the middle east?
>Last time I was there the cross was on show. Don't think it's changed.

I have never been to the middle east, so instead I wiki'd crux:

It is easily visible from the southern hemisphere at practically any time of year, although it is also visible near the horizon from tropical latitudes of the northern hemisphere, for a few hours every night, during the spring months; for instance, from Cancun – or any other place at latitude 25º N or less, with unobstructed view to the South—at around 10 pm, at the end of April.

That cuts out 70% of the middle east by latitude, but the dates do stack up as it should be visible close to easter (and low in the sky?). If I could be bothered I would check the countries for the religions they mentioned and check the lattitude, but I cant be bothered.

ambyeok
5/12/2009
10:28:54 AM
On 4/12/2009 Sarah Gara wrote:
>I've met two practising Buddhists. One of whom came to our house for dinner
>and ate pork I didn't realise they were Buddhist until afterwards and when
>I asked her why she didn't tell me and not eat the meat she said that it
>was more important to embrace my culture and not offend my family by refusing
>food and that Buddhism wasn't about absolutes but about making choices
>and living a good life in a way where your actions benefit others. I don't
>whether all Buddhists are like this but I thought it was a nice concept.

I was introduced to a similar concept through participation in Japanese Tea Ceremony, which is a practice developed strongly around Zen roots. To the tea masters way of thinking the enjoyment of the group is more important than the preferences of the individual. Therefore the vegetarian may choose to eat seafood/meat at this time to avoid detracting from the enjoyment and shared experience of the others. In such an individualistic society as Australia this is a vastly different way of thinking.
Wendy
5/12/2009
10:38:57 AM
On 5/12/2009 scarecrow wrote:
>Agnostic!
>Should be on the list - atheism is all well and good but I bet half of
>that 70% would chose agnostic if they
>knew what it really meant.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
>
>Essentially, its saying that to believe there's a higher power is difficult,
>but I won't get in the way of
>others, I'll happily sit here and just live my own life. Slightly less
>'reverse bible bashing' than atheism.

I think agnostic is a just good way of sitting on the fence. It doesn't say anything about promoting your views of not, it just says it's impossible to know if there's a god or not, but you can believe or not believe and still be agnostic. Atheism simply is more decisive. It says I don't believe that god exists. You can argue still til the cows come home whether it's impossible to know that god exists. There's not really any arguing over whether you believe or not. People will believe regardless of facts/reality/other people's opinions. Scientologists believe we are all messed up bits of aliens from some blown up planet. That's their belief and whether we think it has any basis in reality is irrelevant for them.

to quote from that website "According to Richard Dawkins, a distinction between agnosticism and atheism is unwieldy and depends on how close to zero we are willing to rate the existence of any given god-like entity. Since in practice it is not worth contrasting a zero probability with a probability that is nearly indistinguishable from zero, he prefers to categorize himself as a "de facto atheist""

Humanism is philosophy/morality/ethics base Sarah, not a religion! Unless you want to list John Stuart Mills as a god and "on liberty" as your bible.

If Climberism is recognised as a religion, I must be an extremist - I don't just dedicate weekends to my religious practice, I go on many pilgrimages each year and I own many holy relics.

wallwombat
5/12/2009
11:31:47 AM
On 5/12/2009 Wendy wrote:

>I think agnostic is a just good way of sitting on the fence.

I totally agree Wendy.

And scarecrow, I have never met a 'bible-bashing atheist' in my life. Sure, they might be vocal in arguements and discussions like this one, but they hardly go around knocking on doors and telling people not to believe in God or whatever.
hero
5/12/2009
2:19:54 PM
I ticked atheist, but that not strictly true either. I don't believe in deities so I qualify as one but gods are just a symptom of the human arrogance (possibly hard wired in many people) that makes them unable to cope with the fact that they will die. "I'm so special, something of me must survive." Gods are a way of explainng transmigration of the soul, as is reincarnation. It is this I don't believe (and souls, minds [qualified] or spirits) and so all the other silly religious trappings, heaven hell satan god etc are also out the door.

ambyeok
5/12/2009
10:08:33 PM
On 5/12/2009 hero wrote:
>... Gods are a way of explainng transmigration of the soul, as is reincarnation. ...

For the interest of those who are curious but may be unaware Ill expound a little on Buddhism here. Reincarnation represents a continuation but does not extend to the ego self nor anything we could claim to as 'me'. The Buddhist aim is to loose attachment to the ego, the concept of 'self' and the dualistic world, to see clearly that our dualistic world and concepts of time, self and possession are illusions created by the mind. The mind is a tool and these concepts are instruments by which we interact with the world but they have no actual substance in ultimate reality. Reincarnation is an artifact of our attachment to this dualistic world, and from this attachment stems our continual suffering (though most of us make a pretty good job of getting by!). Buddhist practice is an introspective process of learning and observation in an aim to gradually come to see the root cause of our suffering and to see the world as it truly is. The ultimate aim of Buddhist practice is to free ourselves from these trappings and therein release ourselves from suffering, though for many traditions the final attainment of this aim is unacceptable until such time as all other beings may also do so. I have been simplistic and am unqaulified to present these ideas, I apologise for any inacuracies, but I hope this at least provides some light as to the nature of the Buddhist path.
jacq
5/12/2009
10:27:45 PM
The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster for me. It makes at least as much sense as all the others, except it is more rational because we are perectly aware that it's nonsense! http://www.venganza.org/

Enjoy! :)

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
5/12/2009
11:11:48 PM
rodw wrote;
>Just remember whatever you believe/disbelieve dosnt make you smarter, nicer, better than the next person...its how you treat the next man that counts..now its time for a group hug :)

I disagree!
I am much better, nicer, smarter than-


Heh, heh, heh.


 Page 5 of 11. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 206
There are 206 messages in this topic.

 

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