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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Poll Option Votes Graph
Athiest 90
69% 
Buddhist 5
4% 
Christian 23
18% 
Muslim 1
1% 
Jewish 1
1% 
Hindu 1
1% 
Other 8
6% 
Don't know due too many choices. 2
2% 

 Page 3 of 11. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 206
Author
O.T - Religion & Climbing Poll.

GravityHound
4/12/2009
10:22:42 AM
On 4/12/2009 nmonteith wrote:

>
>20 years later it seems there is finally a move towards creating a non-religious
>option - an ethics class.
>
>http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/25/2752688.htm

Keneally got made leader. we will see if they happen.

gremlin
4/12/2009
10:42:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Ab3tlpvYA <---- Jung on Life after Death

I used to consider myself an Atheist, and still don't buy into this idea of heaven or hell. But after reading a lot of books and eating a lot of acid, i feel that science has become the new controlling religion, people are to scared to think outside this constrictive box they find themselves in. Religious belief has nothing to do with level of education, i know some very intelligent people that believe the bible is the true word of god... scary but it happens.

There is always something to be gleaned from various religions, ignoring them and blanketing them along with their believers as mentally deranged lunatics (altho some are) seems rather ignorant to me. Churches, temples, etc were once the places of higher learning, much like our uni's today. Personally i prefer to hear/read someone elses ideas, pass it through my "cynical motherf---er" filter and see what happens.

A few athiests' comments remind me of Jung's concept of the shadow. Maybe it's just something they hate within their own personality and refuse to accept?

What bugs me is these suckers that swallow a religion hook, line and sinker.

wallwombat
4/12/2009
10:42:21 AM


>>I'm attracted to the notion that religious belief is a usually mild form
>of mental illness

>>Wow! You want to know something weird - over 70 percent of chockstoners
>have above average intelligence

On 4/12/2009 foreverabumbly wrote:
>for example is not questioning my faith, thats ridiculing me.


I think you are being a bit precious here and not taking into account who said what. The first quote is by swineofthetimes and the second is by stugang. I challenge you to do a search and find a post by either of these fine gentlemen, about any subject, where they are not taking the piss. They ridicule anyone and everything and I believe Chockstone is a better site for it.

rodw
4/12/2009
11:02:02 AM
Im an atheist, my wife is a spiritual cristian ie believes in god just not the idea of churches/organised religion etc and my 9yo daughter believes in God as much as a 9yo can take in the concept....I dont care what they believe as long as they dont preach as I dont to others...its a personal choice.

wallwombat
4/12/2009
11:11:44 AM
Don't lie Rod. You belong to the Holy Church of the Ring Bolt and you've been preaching and trying to convert me since the first day we met and you have just about succeeded, you evil man.
Wendy
4/12/2009
11:12:33 AM
On 4/12/2009 gremlin wrote:

>
>I used to consider myself an Atheist, and still don't buy into this idea
>of heaven or hell. But after reading a lot of books and eating a lot of
>acid, i feel that science has become the new controlling religion, people
>are to scared to think outside this constrictive box they find themselves
>in.

One doesn't need to be a scientist to be an atheist. The concepts of heaven/hell/higher beings/afterlife/reincarnation etcetc just don't make any sense to me and I'm happy with finding purpose for my life in what I have around me - in people and the environment. Aside from the issues that christian religions also have with very well accepted science, like the age of the earth. And if science is a controlling religion, there's a remarkable amount of debate with in it.

>Religious belief has nothing to do with level of education, i know
>some very intelligent people that believe the bible is the true word of
>god... scary but it happens.

There is actually a strong correlation between increasing availablity of education and the decline in religion. Which isn't to say that you must be dumb to have faith, but that broader education has exposed people to new ideas and ways of thinking. Education and information has also allayed some of the fears that religion formerly managed. Some people have thought about these things and still have faith. Others don't.


Sabu
4/12/2009
11:15:07 AM
On 4/12/2009 Fish Boy wrote:
>Sabu, you are mixing biology with psychology...

hmm lets see: The brain is the biological basis for all behaviour. That includes
perception, thought, emotion and so on. It's just a combination of cellular interactions
and chemicals being released (an extremely basic summary of brain function).
Psychology relates to how people perceive things, how they think, how they respond
and behave. All these things are controlled for by the brain so therefore biology and
psychology are inherently mixed.
Thats not to say psychological disorders have only biological causes, they can be
environmental, social etc.
hero
4/12/2009
11:17:49 AM
You callng me a buddhist Swine?



he he Buddhist swine. Not as rare as Muslim Swine or Zionist Swine,

Sabu
4/12/2009
11:33:18 AM
On 4/12/2009 gremlin wrote:
>I used to consider myself an Atheist, and still don't buy into this idea
>of heaven or hell. But after reading a lot of books and eating a lot of
>acid, i feel that science has become the new controlling religion, people
>are to scared to think outside this constrictive box they find themselves
>in. Religious belief has nothing to do with level of education, i know
>some very intelligent people that believe the bible is the true word of
>god... scary but it happens.
I heard a speaker once say that 10% of the worlds greatest minds still believe in a God.
What I have a problem with is when people say science and Religion don't mix and you
have to believe one or the other. Science is a brilliant tool we use to understand the
world we live in while Religion accounts for outside of this world. To me it just seems like
bad science if we were to try use it to disprove the existence of God.

>There is always something to be gleaned from various religions, ignoring
>them and blanketing them along with their believers as mentally deranged
>lunatics (altho some are) seems rather ignorant to me. Churches, temples,
>etc were once the places of higher learning, much like our uni's today.
>Personally i prefer to hear/read someone elses ideas, pass it through my
>"cynical motherf---er" filter and see what happens.
Likewise I prefer those who believe to be educated about it and also try understand their
beliefs in terms of other concepts. Blind faith and close mindedness about everything
else irritates me as much as pompous atheists who believe they're more intelligent than
me on account of their beliefs (or lack of).

>A few athiests' comments remind me of Jung's concept of the shadow. Maybe
>it's just something they hate within their own personality and refuse to
>accept?
Now that you mention it, thats actually quite apparent whenever this kind of debate
crops up. Very interesting!
kieranl
4/12/2009
11:51:40 AM
On 4/12/2009 Sabu wrote:
>On 3/12/2009 kieranl wrote:
>By that logic homosexuality (for example) is also an illness as it represents
>a deviation
>from the norm (abnormal, like any mental illness), can range mild to flamboyant
>and is
>possibly beneficial to many people!
>More importantly there is also much more evidence suggesting differences
>in brain
>structure and function in homosexuals vs heterosexuals than there are
>in atheists vs
>theists, suggesting a biological component in addition to the psychosocial
>factors. Given
>a biological component there may even be a cure! (i'm not holding my breath
>but the
>chances are better than your suggestion :P)
>So which one is the disease then? If one had to choose, based on the evidence,
>the one
>with brain abnormalities / differences would be the logical option.
>The answer? Neither, as neither cause pathological or significant, impairment
>in
>neurological, social or occupational functioning.
>
>This is tongue in cheek, but I stress that if you were to start throwing
>disease or disorder
>labels around due to it being "abnormal" then you better include some
>other behaviours
>as well like the aforementioned! Hell even most of us here would classify
>as "mentally ill"
>given we're abnormal for actively involving ourselves in an "extreme sport"
>like climbing!
>
>BTW, I like how you've unknowingly jumped into the ferocious pit that
>is the debate
>between normal and abnormal human behaviour! :P
Sorry, this is all post-edited as I hit OK before putting any comments.
I didn't like Sabu trying to muddy the waters by saying that homsexuality might also fall under my broad umbrella of "mental illness"
Sabu is misinterpreting what I said. I haven't presented any arguments in favour of the position that religious fath might be a mental illness, so there's no "logic" to extrapolate from. I believe that you're interpolating your own logic as to what may underpin the "mental illness" thesis. I'm not going to argue for it beyond saying that it is an interesting idea.
Similarly, I didn't introduce the concept of abnormality.
So, extending my "logic" to draw in homosexuality (even tongue-in-cheek) isn't valid as I didn't present an argument. In essence I presented a religious position which must be taken on faith :)

rodw
4/12/2009
11:55:42 AM
On 4/12/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>Don't lie Rod. You belong to the Holy Church of the Ring Bolt and you've
>been preaching and trying to convert me since the first day we met and
>you have just about succeeded, you evil man.

Damn straight Wombat and dont forget the 1st and only commandment....

"Sport climbing isnt a matter of life and death, its much more important than that"

Now thats its a religion everything will be tax free...woot \o/

billk
4/12/2009
12:00:30 PM
On 4/12/2009 ambyeok wrote:
>On 4/12/2009 Wendy wrote:
>>and buddism has a trendy, alternative ring to it.......
>
>Quite agree. However bear in mind when discussing Budhism that the Dalia
>Lama represents one tradition, the Tibetan Mahayana school. We also have
>the southern Theravadan schools, Pure Land teachings, Zen, Chan, Seon,
>etc. I suspect many people are hugely ignorant of Buddhism and their knowledge
>may be limited only to exposure to popular culture and well known images/figures
>(same can be said for my knowledge of many other religions). I wouldnt
>personally categorise Buddhist practice as a religion, if it is a religion
>than it is religion without faith, that is a big difference.

Buddhism is for people who don't believe in god or an eternal soul but still want to go to church.

foreverabumbly
4/12/2009
12:01:26 PM
On 4/12/2009 wallwombat wrote:

>I think you are being a bit precious here
I agree, again I jumped the gun. And I was pretty harse about it too.

Those with any faith keep that faith close and it is a part of thier identity, more so than a trad or sport climber even. Insulting someone in jest is still insulting them.

At the moment Im am defending myself in "religious debates' over 3 different forums, some more at home and one at uni. I am being constantly inundated with people taking the piss over what I believe in at the moment, So I guess thats why Im being precious :/ So Im sorry if I seem to be overreacting

ambyeok
4/12/2009
12:25:15 PM
On 4/12/2009 billk wrote:
>Buddhism is for people who don't believe in god or an eternal soul but still want to go to church.

Heh heh. Thats actually pretty good.
Duncan
4/12/2009
1:44:33 PM
On 4/12/2009 Sabu wrote:
>I heard a speaker once say that 10% of the worlds greatest minds still
>believe in a God.

Quoting for lols.
Wendy
4/12/2009
2:22:09 PM
On 4/12/2009 Sabu wrote:

Science is a brilliant tool we use to
>understand the
>world we live in while Religion accounts for outside of this world. To
>me it just seems like
>bad science if we were to try use it to disprove the existence of God.

Ok, not enough controversy to distract me from rendering, so here we go.

This sounds like an excuse to deny any conflict between science and religion. How can it be bad sciene to try and disprove the existence of god? Surely science is about trying to disprove things? It's quite fair to try and disprove someone's hypothesis that such and such was a miracle or an act of god or that the world was created in 7 days and that the moon is made of blue cheese.

It's also quite reasonable to try and disprove the idea that there is anything "outside of this world". To say that "outside of this world" is the realm of god is also being very unfair to astrologists, mediums and aliens. Surely they have a right to claim some space "outside of this world"?



>

>>On 4/12/2009 gremlin wrote:
>>A few athiests' comments remind me of Jung's concept of the shadow. Maybe
>>it's just something they hate within their own personality and refuse
>to
>>accept?
>Sabu wrote:
>Now that you mention it, thats actually quite apparent whenever this kind
>of debate
>crops up. Very interesting!

Can either of you clarify to me how this is quite apparent, because I don't see it? Now, I'm not big on Jungian psychology, but for the sake of your argument, lets take his idea that our negative responses to people/attitudes/behaviour etc are a result of repressed aspect of our personality that we don't like. I'm generally pretty tolerant generally, but the things that really get on my goat, that really offend me are things that offend my values and beliefs. So you could say that under this hippy, leftist surface, there is a raging capitalitist, racist, sexist homophobic monster waiting to get out, but I don't think so.

So if we get back to religion - I'm not religious basically because I don't need something to make sense of my world for me and am quite happy to accept that I just am a rather intelligent species of animal that will die and rot like any other. But I have a problem with organised religion in general, because it has taken certain groups' values and beliefs and tried to impose them on other people, it has denied, abused, oppressed and criminalised people, started wars, inquisitions, locked people up, declared people ill or insane on basis differening beliefs/looks/behaviour and all this has been taken up by various governments and legal institutions at various times and enforced and whilst there are a few good principles to be found in there somewhere, they have failed abysmally to act in accordance with these principles, and indeed, have consistantly acted and judged in complete contradiction to them, so on my balance of consideration, I don't like it. It offends my personal values and beliefs. Maybe underneath all this I am really a right-to-lifer who believes women should be covered from head to toe, that homoxeuality is a sin and plan to throw myself on the burning pyre of my husband, but again, I don't think so.

Chuck Norris
4/12/2009
2:28:07 PM
I apologise if I only offended religious folk, as I intended to insult everyone.

wallwombat
4/12/2009
2:38:17 PM
On 4/12/2009 stugang wrote:
>I apologise if I only offended religious folk, as I intended to insult
>everyone.

I told them that but they didn't seem to believe me.

Sabu
4/12/2009
3:02:22 PM
On 4/12/2009 kieranl wrote:
>Sorry, this is all post-edited as I hit OK before putting any comments.
>I didn't like Sabu trying to muddy the waters by saying that homsexuality
>might also fall under my broad umbrella of "mental illness"
>Sabu is misinterpreting what I said. I haven't presented any arguments
>in favour of the position that religious fath might be a mental illness,
>so there's no "logic" to extrapolate from. I believe that you're interpolating
>your own logic as to what may underpin the "mental illness" thesis. I'm
>not going to argue for it beyond saying that it is an interesting idea.
>Similarly, I didn't introduce the concept of abnormality.
>So, extending my "logic" to draw in homosexuality (even tongue-in-cheek)
>isn't valid as I didn't present an argument. In essence I presented a religious
>position which must be taken on faith :)
Point taken, but to be clear mental illness and the concept of abnormality are
interrelated. You can't talk about one without talking about the other. And introducing
that idea has a massive flow on effect which was what i was trying to point out.

ambyeok
4/12/2009
4:13:34 PM
On 4/12/2009 Wendy wrote:
>..... But I have a problem with organised religion in general, because it has taken certain
>groups' values and beliefs and tried to impose them on other people, it has denied,
>abused, oppressed and criminalised people, started wars, inquisitions, locked people
>up, declared people ill or insane on basis differening beliefs/looks/behaviour and all
>this has been taken up by various governments and legal institutions at various times
>and enforced and whilst there are a few good principles to be found in there
>somewhere, they have failed abysmally to act in accordance with these principles,
>and indeed, have consistantly acted and judged in complete contradiction to them, so
>on my balance of consideration, I don't like it......

There is organised religion and then there is the people who pervert those institutions for their own purpose. If we condemn organised religion for this alone then we must also condemn government, community groups, sporting bodies, charities, etc.

I agree that certain religions are more interested in imposing their ideas on others than certain other religions. However, once again this is usually expressed and encouraged by a number of individuals with vested interests and keen to advance their own agenda.

Lets not forget that the 'religion' of patriotism has caused many and much the such problems as you attribute to organised religion.

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