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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 4 of 9. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 176
Author
Sydney National Parks - Climbing & POM Review

Capt_mulch
10/12/2009
1:20:21 PM
It seems so Rod - I'm waiting for NPWS to get back to me on when, how and why they decided to officially ban climbing - they state in the 1998 PoM that 'climbing has never been allowed' - but no reference to how this was legislated (or whatever it is they have to do). I'm getting close with the submission - I just need some juicy and specific references to when and where climbing actually started in the area that is now the park.

rodw
10/12/2009
1:39:30 PM
Ill say you ill be waiting a looong time for a response.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
10/12/2009
1:42:44 PM
Perhaps ask NPWS for their documentation on
>'climbing has never been allowed'
... and then reply to that in the submission with a list of documented climbs prior to (1998?) might suffice?
~> ie why not use their own ammunition against them, rather than do all the legwork yourself?

In any event I would not take an adversarial role against them in this, even though collectively we disagree with their policy; as I have found working with such authorities to be a more productive exercise.

Another thought. Are you jumping the gun on this? I too will be putting in a submission when they seek comment on the next draft plan of management, ... after it is formulated and put out for public comment! Weight of numbers and all that...

rodw
10/12/2009
2:12:42 PM
Agreed wait for the draft plan, but in the mean time submit on the fourm they have put up, as being NPWS they wont carry submissions over to the next phase..they will require it all to be re-submitted...if you dont mind doing it twice though...go right ahead.

Capt_mulch
10/12/2009
2:15:29 PM
On 10/12/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Perhaps ask NPWS for their documentation on
>>'climbing has never been allowed'
>... and then reply to that in the submission with a list of documented
>climbs prior to (1998?) might suffice?
>~> ie why not use their own ammunition against them, rather than do all
>the legwork yourself?
>
Yep, that's what I'm working on - it seems that climbing was allowed before 1998 (probably implicitly rather than explicitly), it's just that they say that it wasn't.


>In any event I would not take an adversarial role against them in this,
>even though collectively we disagree with their policy; as I have found
>working with such authorities to be a more productive exercise.
Nothing adversarial. I am using the argument that rock climbing actually is very compatible with their stated historical, cultural and recreation objectives for the park. Note that my submission is under the auspices of the CCA, so I gotta be nice. (Not to mention there's a very UK-style sea cliff traverse I want to put up at Dobroyd Head, so I need to suck up hard :-)

>
>Another thought. Are you jumping the gun on this? I too will be putting
>in a submission when they seek comment on the next draft plan of management,
>... after it is formulated and put out for public comment! Weight of numbers
>and all that...

Not sure if I'm jumping the gun. I'm just responding to a request by Zac Zaharias for someone to work on a submission for the CCA. I'm working it out as I go along. If people want to get together for a more co-ordinated or combined approach, I'm more than happy. I've put this to Kevin Westren (Sydney Rockies), but no reply yet.

kuu
10/12/2009
3:11:45 PM
On 10/12/2009 Capt_mulch wrote:

>Not sure if I'm jumping the gun. I'm just responding to a request by Zac
>Zaharias for someone to work on a submission for the CCA. I'm working it
>out as I go along. If people want to get together for a more co-ordinated
>or combined approach, I'm more than happy. I've put this to Kevin Westren
>(Sydney Rockies), but no reply yet.

Hi Mulchy,

I've responded to your email.

As I said therein I think a co-ordinated but multiple response approach would probably be best, i.e
Sydney Rockies speaking as a 'local voice' (albeit a single voice without a formal mandate to
represent the wider climbing community) and CCA voicing concerns from further afield to demonstrate
the issue is of wider concern. If VCC and other interstate clubs were prepared to add their voices this
would be great and focus a national interest on what might otherwise be seen (by the bureaucrats) as a
parochial matter.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
10/12/2009
3:23:00 PM
On 8/12/2009 Wendy wrote:
>On 8/12/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>I posted a reply'agreement to a wendysarah post on a thread at that Parks
>>Vic site. When I went back to re-read the thread I couldn't find it.
>>~> Don't know where it ended up!
>>
>>Definitely a convoluted process!!
>
>I found it!
>>
>Only by accident though ...

I have since posted links to both the Vic site and the NSW site to a ranger mate in Parks Vic, for comparative purposes and possibly for him to forward my email on to the powers that be; as I understand both sites were set up at about the same time, ... but if one compares the usage/s it is obvious that the Vic site is suffering from it's non-user-friendliness.

wallwombat
10/12/2009
3:43:53 PM
On 10/12/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>Another thought. Are you jumping the gun on this? I too will be putting
>in a submission when they seek comment on the next draft plan of management,
>... after it is formulated and put out for public comment! Weight of numbers
>and all that...
>☺

Mr Harding-Robbins may be onto something here. At the moment I think getting everyone in the CCA to make a response on the public forum may be more productive.

kuu
10/12/2009
4:18:51 PM
On 10/12/2009 wallwombat wrote:

>Mr Harding-Robbins may be onto something here. At the moment I think getting
>everyone in the CCA to make a response on the public forum may be more
>productive.

Totally agree WW, but it's not just members of CCA who can help make a difference.

In an email sent yesterday to SRC members I encouraged them to post on the Forum and said (in
part):

" Irrespective of whether or not you are ever likely to choose to climb on the cliffs concerned this
comes down to a matter of principle. You may never want to climb Mount Everest, El Cap, Mont Blanc
or Bunny Bucket Buttress, but isnít it important that the choice to do so be there? So please take the
time to have your say! "

Climbers everywhere who have an opinion on this issue and something useful to contribute should do
so via the Bang The Table website:

http://sydneyharbourpom.net.au/topic/what-activities-to-allow-or-ban-in-our-national-park

Oh, and if you think it's appropriate, commend the NPWS for providing this opportunity to voice your
view.




IdratherbeclimbingM9
10/12/2009
4:35:04 PM
On 10/12/2009 kuu wrote:
>Totally agree WW, but it's not just members of CCA who can help make a
>difference.
>
>In an email sent yesterday to SRC members I encouraged them

You are right about having choice kuu, and I thank you for having the foresight to engage the 'wider SRC'.

There are a lot of active Chockstoners who can still lend their support, ... but why stop there...
I have supported Qld access issues as an interstater, and some international issues (Yosemite camp 4, etc) in the past as well. All it takes is for the word to be spread further.

It isn't difficult to 'agree' with someone on a forum, and the numbers do add up. In fact the powers that be, often take the numbers more seriously than the content espoused, and this was recently reaffirmed in my mind by the liberal politicians taking note of emails and sms messages they were inundated with during their recent political manoeuvring. I seriously doubt they read every one, but they got the gist of the sentiment and acted accordingly.

wallwombat
10/12/2009
5:35:54 PM
I have just posted this on Supertopo, rockclimbing.com and UKClimbing.com. Hopefully it will illicit some positive responses.

"Hi There

I'm sure that more than a few of you have been to Australia and climbed at some of our excellent climbing areas such as Mount Arapiles, The Grampians and The Blue Mountains.

Well, the Plan of Management for Sydney Harbour National Park, which has some of the best sea cliff climbing in Oz, is coming up for review. Climbing has been effectively banned in the park since the first Plan of Management was drafted in 1998 and in a very uncharacteristic move by the National Park and Wildlife Service, they have set up a public forum on what activities should be allowed in the park.

We are currently trying to rally as many reponses as possible to prove to the Nationaal Parks and Wildlife Service that climbers aren't just a voiceless fringe group and rock climbing is a valid form of recreation and should be permitted in the Park.

Here is the link to the National Parks public forum. It only takes 5 minutes to register and have your say. It doesn't have to be an essay. Simply, point out that rock climbing is a valid form of recreation and you believe it should be permitted in the park. Any response would be greatly appreciated.

http://sydneyharbourpom.net.au/topic/what-activities-to-allow-or-ban-in-our-national-park

Just think, you could be getting off a plane in Sydney and legally cranking great sandstone routes, next to one of the most beautiful harbours in the world, less than an hour later.

Here's a taste of what could be.

http://onsight.com.au/gallery/list.php?exhibition=31&ee_lang=eng

As I said , any positive response would be greatly appreciated.

Merry Christmas.

Wallwombat"

wallwombat
10/12/2009
6:22:05 PM
And, yes, I realise describing the Sydney sea cliffs as "some of the best sea cliff climbing in Oz" was a bit over the top. I was using a bit of artistic licence there.

rodw
10/12/2009
6:35:30 PM
TBH its very unique in its etting...few major cities can boast crags such as found in the park...big ticks for a travelling climber to get a piccy of sydney in the background halfway up a wall.

Climbing isnt all about the best rock or best moves...its also about location...and north head has the covered

wallwombat
10/12/2009
9:53:56 PM
I just wanted to point out that the ban on climbing at Balls Head has nothing to do with the National Parks and Wildlife Service. It's North Sydney Council who have imposed that particular ban.
maxdacat
11/12/2009
1:46:08 AM
On 9/12/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>>On the subject of rock fishermen. I reckon if the NPWS decided to ban
>rock fishing, they would be demonstrating on the steps of parliment house

just thinking out loud....don't the fishermen have to CLIMB down to get to where they want to fish....it could be argued that their activities should be banned too because of this. Do they actually define climbing as that done with ropes?

pmonks
11/12/2009
4:34:06 AM
On 10/12/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>I just wanted to point out that the ban on climbing at Balls Head has nothing
>to do with the National Parks and Wildlife Service. It's North Sydney Council
>who have imposed that particular ban.

Yep. For the record, during the original editing of SSS in 1997 I tried numerous (about 10) times to find someone at North Sydney Council to talk to about this ban. Really all I wanted was a reference to the actual document, so I could link it from the access page. I got stuck in a maze of twisty bureaucratic passages, all the same, and gave up. :-(

Now might be a good time to reopen that line of communication and try to get the concrete facts? My (very vague!) recollection is that the cave under Clocks contains a midden, so there may be good reason that that area is closed.

pmonks
11/12/2009
4:36:30 AM
On 11/12/2009 maxdacat wrote:
>Do they actually define climbing as that done with ropes?

If so, anyone up for a legal solo ascent of The Fear?

oooh.....I get chills up my spine just imagining it! Or maybe it's because it's 2įC here and I'm freezing my moobs off....
grangrump
11/12/2009
11:32:00 AM
On 10/12/2009 kuu wrote:
... >In an email sent yesterday to SRC members I encouraged them to post on
>the Forum ...

just for clarity: is it enuf for people to log and click the 'agree' button on an existing post
or do you want more and more repetitive posts?
Access T CliffCare
11/12/2009
11:38:25 AM
On 10/12/2009 kuu wrote:
>On 10/12/2009 Capt_mulch wrote:
>
>>Not sure if I'm jumping the gun. I'm just responding to a request by
>Zac
>>Zaharias for someone to work on a submission for the CCA. I'm working
>it
>>out as I go along. If people want to get together for a more co-ordinated
>>or combined approach, I'm more than happy. I've put this to Kevin Westren
>>(Sydney Rockies), but no reply yet.
>
>Hi Mulchy,
>
>I've responded to your email.
>
>As I said therein I think a co-ordinated but multiple response approach
>would probably be best, i.e
>Sydney Rockies speaking as a 'local voice' (albeit a single voice without
>a formal mandate to
>represent the wider climbing community) and CCA voicing concerns from
>further afield to demonstrate
>the issue is of wider concern. If VCC and other interstate clubs were
>prepared to add their voices this
>would be great and focus a national interest on what might otherwise be
>seen (by the bureaucrats) as a
>parochial matter.


Hi Kevin,

This is definately on my list of to do. I shall be putting a post up on the forum myself and will be encouraging members through our website and other contact points to consider this and make the effort. As we all know getting climbers to add their voices to these issues en masse can be often difficult and although we all climb at all the cliffs in all the states(well at least hope to and have that option somewhere in the future) we need to change our thinking on only making the effort for those that directly affect us locally. Any other ways/ideas in which we can help, let me know.

Cheers,

Tracey

wallwombat
11/12/2009
12:42:27 PM
On 11/12/2009 grangrump wrote:
>just for clarity: is it enuf for people to log and click the 'agree' button
>on an existing post
>or do you want more and more repetitive posts?

I reckon more and more repititive posts is the go. If you are going to bother registering you might as well say something, even if it is just " I believe rock climbing should be permitted in Sydney Harbour National Park" .

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