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ACA call for Blood!!!


Sarah Gara

14-Sep-2009
9:17:08 PM

well websites like that make you appreciate chocky - I remember looking at that one when I first strated to investigate climbing in Oz... didn't get too far though cos I found here.

I'm interested and I have the time (saves me getting drawn into Home and Away -I'm starting to get intrigued -my flatmate watches it...) But I'd have to be able to email it in depending on where they meet -does anyone know where? I reckon too far for me? x


MrKyle

14-Sep-2009
9:24:50 PM

If the ACA is de-registered the data will be passed on to other custodians. Ideally, the route register portion of the website would be transferred too.

Glad to see that the route database is valued.


MrKyle

14-Sep-2009
11:04:54 PM

I think I should clarify a few things:

The whole idea of the ACA was to provide an organisation that could unite the community at a national level - not surplant local clubs and groups. Despite the opinions of some on this forum, this idea has a lot of support from both individuals and clubs.

Here's some of the stuff we got up to while everyone else was having fun chatting on forums:
* Provided the launching point and identity for the ACA Qld - which is healthy and running autonomously.
* Spoke at the inaugural meeting of the NZAC in Sydney and presented the case that an NZAC affiliated ACA was a better long-term option than an Australian NZAC chapter. They voted against it.
* Had discussions with the community in the Blue Mountains to restart cliffcare under the ACA. They wanted to do it alone - and the initiative promptly collapsed. That said, track work and clean-ups have continued thanks to certain individuals.
* Had productive discussions with Canberra climbers association around affiliation.
* Had productive discussions and relationship with the Sydney Rockies - particularly around access.
* Attempted to have a dialogue with the VCC - they rejected our affiliation proposal and refused to give any explanation.

In regard to some of the specific charter objectives:
1) Online route database: Custom made by us.
2) Climbing festival: We worked with Adam and Claire to help with the Australian Climbing Festival, at which we ran the access forum with reps from each state. The ACA now owns the climbing festival (and some debt). A venue is booked for 2010, but the festival is unlikely to happen.
3) National magazine: In my mind a cornerstone for an organisation with national climbing aspirations. When crux came along, we approached its organisers with an offer of a merger - to mirror the NZAC model. They declined.
4) Online community. By the time we built the forums and news section on the site (2005) Chockstone had become the preferred forum. The user-contributed news was active for awhile, but there's no point in competing and we have pretty much abandoned it.
5) Insurance. We worked with insure-4-less to develop a policy for Australian climbers traveling overseas.
6) Sponsorship. Provided $500 in support for an OS trip for Garth Miller.

I hope this shows that there is more to the ACA story than just the website.

One last point; we always intended to create an organisation that would outlast the motivations of any individual member. But clearly we mishandled the handover. In retrospect we should have had this dialogue a few years ago, rather than gradually losing momentum.

On with the discussion...


Sarah Gara

14-Sep-2009
11:40:04 PM

think I'll give up... no kiss sulk.


wallwombat

14-Sep-2009
11:48:47 PM

On 14/09/2009 MrKyle wrote:
>I think I should clarify a few things:
>
>Here's some of the stuff we got up to while everyone else was having fun
>chatting on forums:
>* Provided the launching point and identity for the ACA Qld - which is
>healthy and running autonomously.
>* Spoke at the inaugural meeting of the NZAC in Sydney and presented the
>case that an NZAC affiliated ACA was a better long-term option than an
>Australian NZAC chapter. They voted against it.
>* Had discussions with the community in the Blue Mountains to restart
>cliffcare under the ACA. They wanted to do it alone - and the initiative
>promptly collapsed. That said, track work and clean-ups have continued
>thanks to certain individuals.
>* Had productive discussions with Canberra climbers association around
>affiliation.
>* Had productive discussions and relationship with the Sydney Rockies
>- particularly around access.
>* Attempted to have a dialogue with the VCC - they rejected our affiliation
>proposal and refused to give any explanation.
>
>In regard to some of the specific charter objectives:
>1) Online route database: Custom made by us.
>2) Climbing festival: We worked with Adam and Claire to help with the
>Australian Climbing Festival, at which we ran the access forum with reps
>from each state. The ACA now owns the climbing festival (and some debt).
>A venue is booked for 2010, but the festival is unlikely to happen.
>3) National magazine: In my mind a cornerstone for an organisation with
>national climbing aspirations. When crux came along, we approached its
>organisers with an offer of a merger - to mirror the NZAC model. They declined.
>4) Online community. By the time we built the forums and news section
>on the site (2005) Chockstone had become the preferred forum. The user-contributed
>news was active for awhile, but there's no point in competing and we have
>pretty much abandoned it.
>5) Insurance. We worked with insure-4-less to develop a policy for Australian
>climbers traveling overseas.
>6) Sponsorship. Provided $500 in support for an OS trip for Garth Miller.
>
>I hope this shows that there is more to the ACA story than just the website.

Yes it does. It shows that the ACA is achieving absolutely bugger all.

First section basically says you approached a number of groups in regards to affiliations and most of them told you they weren't interested. Most would get the hint here.

The second section, regarding aspects of the charter. I aknowledge the route data base. Then you go on about how you have taken over the climbing festival and now it's not going to happen, how you wanted to have a finger in the Crux Magazine pie and they said no, how there is no online community and the forums have failed, something about insurance and then blurt out that you gave Garth $500 to go overseas.

Now I have nothing against Garth Miller. I like the guy. But surely, there would have been better ways to spend $500, while contributing to the Australian climbing community and boosting your own profile, than giving it to Garth to go OS.

That money could have gone towards rebolting or trackwork and even a climbing comp or something like the Thommos T10 thing and would have been great PR for the ACA. What a bloody waste! I can barely believe it and you almost boast about it like it's a really good thing that the ACA has done. Well, I'm sure Garth thinks it was a really good thing.Given that the ACA can barely get off the ground , it is a ludicrous waste of funds.

Before your post I almost considered joining the ACA but I've now decided you don't have a bloody clue and my membership $ would be better off going elsewhere.

I really wish you hadn't clarified things.


Sarah Gara

14-Sep-2009
11:53:56 PM

In fact you know what I'm not surprised you are struggling - you sound very negative in your post blaming everyone else and being slightly ooohhh look what we've done... ( I hasten to add that my sole knowledge of the ACA is from this post and a brief 5min look on your web page -so I may be way out)

You've also got my back up for slagging the VCC (those who I've met have been lovely) and crux (Nm has been very nice to me on here) You seem to be stuck mulling about your failures - or rather everyone elses.

I've expressed an interest in what you do and offered my assistance in asking what you need help with and whether there would be anything I could do to help I am the very definition of new blood god damn it! (I'd follow this with a thump of a fist on a desk -for dramatic effect, you understand) and you've just totally ignored me! now that's just not right.

-phew! that was slightly more grr than I had anticipated... humph! x


nmonteith

15-Sep-2009
9:04:00 AM

I now offcially withdraw my support for all of wallwombat's comments. Let's try and keep this positive.
The last thing they need to hear is personal criticism.

Regarding crux, just like the ACA it was not just one person running the mag and some members didn't
like the idea of loosing control over the work they had put into it. The mag had a (delusional) goal of
making a profit so introducing yet another layer of beurocracy wasn't deemed to be worth it. My own
personal opinion was that crux would have made a great aca mag and a membership sweetner. It was
just a shame that the mag struggled financially from day 1 and was never in a stable enough position to
be 'sold' to the aca.

The aca guys worked hard getting the whole started, but obviosly hit some big hurdles. I hope much of
their good work doesn't get lost.


nmonteith

15-Sep-2009
9:35:42 AM

On 14/09/2009 MrKyle wrote:
>5) Insurance. We worked with insure-4-less to develop a policy for Australian
>climbers traveling overseas.

I've used this insurance twice now, and was very happy that the ACA was involved in getting it organized. Most people would be aware that getting local climbing insurance for OS is a nightmare.

>6) Sponsorship. Provided $500 in support for an OS trip for Garth Miller.

I have no issue with this. I'm sure the ACA had grander plans to hand out more sponsorships like this to other worthy climbers and organizations. I think a shortfall of funds is the reason why they didn't donate to other causes!


wallwombat

15-Sep-2009
10:50:20 AM

On 15/09/2009 Nmonteith wrote:
>I now offcially withdraw my support for all of wallwombat's comments. Let's
>try and keep this positive.
>The last thing they need to hear is personal criticism.

Get serious, Neil, you big princess!

Where did I get personal? When I said "you don't have a bloody clue."?

That wasn't directed at MrKyle, it was directed at the whole ACA.

I wasn't getting personal regarding Garth either, I would have said the same thing if the $500 had gone towards anyones trip overseas. It's a waste of bloody money and could be spent in much better ways.

You said it yourself, Neil, the ACA has almost no profile at trackwork days and in rebolting projects and such. Well there went 500 missed opportunities to boost that profile and do something that would benefit more than one climber.

I have no problem with them sponsoring people to go climb overseas but you have to prioritize. It is surely something that has to wait until the organisation is in a good enough financial position and as I have said, local grass roots projects should take priority.

You know that annoyingly catchy song " From Little Things Big Things Grow". Well, it's not just a catchy tune, it's kind of true. It's those local grass roots projects that people get involved in and when it comes down to it 'people' are what the ACA need. Having an 'Association' without people is comical.

The reason the ACA if failing is the same reason Crux failed. There isn't enough money. Especially now, with the financial crisis. People are unsure. History has shown that there aren't enough climbers and climbing $$ floating around to maintain a second climbing magazine in Australia.

Rock Mag survives because they are part of WIld Publications and they operate from a position of relative financial strength. It is good for Rock that there is only a limited amount of climbing related $$$ getting around, as it has let them be virtually the 'only pub in town' for a long time.

In Australia, very little in the way of outdoor industry $$$ get put back into the climbing community, unlike the USA and the UK. This is largely due to larger climber populations and more of a climbing industry in those countries. I have said that before.

After MrKyle posted that long list of apologetic drivel about what the ACA have and haven't done, I decided it was time for some tough love. It still is.

Why aren't we going to have a climbing festival next year?

The ACA took over the festival and the first I hear of it is them saying we probably aren't going to have one now. Well thanks guys. Top job.

Why, when it became apparent that the festival was too big a job for the ACA to organise, didn't they notify the climbing community. Why didn't they ask for help?

The climbing festivals are fantastic and unfortunately happen too rarely. It's a shame to have lost one because the ACA took on more than they could handle and didn't admit to it until it was too late.

If you want the ACA to ever be more than a climbing data base then you need to build a profile and get known to to wider climbing community. That's how you will get members. Track work days, rebolting projects, junior coaching clinics , sausage sizzles, get the mums and dads involved - anything like that, helps to build your profile in the climbing community. They are your bread and butter. And you need representatives of the ACA at these days, talking up the ACA and what they do and getting new members.

How many ACA $$$ went towards projects like this?


nmonteith

15-Sep-2009
11:23:20 AM

On 15/09/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>Why aren't we going to have a climbing festival next year?
>
>The ACA took over the festival and the first I hear of it is them saying
>we probably aren't going to have one now. Well thanks guys. Top job.
>
>Why, when it became apparent that the festival was too big a job for the
>ACA to organise, didn't they notify the climbing community. Why didn't
>they ask for help?

Just because you haven't read about it on Chockstone doesn't mean they haven't been asking
particular individuals for help. There are people working behind the scenes to try and make it happen.
This forum message is the cry for help you have requested!

>If you want the ACA to ever be more than a climbing data base then you
>need to build a profile and get known to to wider climbing community. That's
>how you will get members. Track work days, rebolting projects, junior
>coaching clinics , sausage sizzles, get the mums and dads involved - anything
>like that, helps to build your profile in the climbing community. They
>are your bread and butter. And you need representatives of the ACA at these
>days, talking up the ACA and what they do and getting new members.

At least they did try and get involved but were given the cold shoulder by the organizations already
involved in these activities (VCC, Bluies Cliffcare ect)

>
>How many ACA $$$ went towards projects like this?

Probably none because there wasn't any money!


wallwombat

15-Sep-2009
12:02:55 PM

On 15/09/2009 nmonteith wrote:

>Probably none because there wasn't any money!

At some point there was $500 and at some point it was decided it would be better spent on sponsoring an overseas trip.

Do you think the American Alpine Club or the Access Funds only donated their support to projects that they can take over and run?

If the ACA had thrown a few $$ towards the track work at Barden's they would have got their web address branded onto one of the wooden steps, like Summit Gear did. That's raising the ACA's profile and showing that they contribute to local projects.

The ACA could have had a prescence at the two recent weekend events at Thompson's Point (24 Hours of Power and Thommo's T10). They could have run a sausage sizzle and maybe run a raffle or something or simply had someone on the ground talking to people about the ACA. These kind of things are big missed opportunities for the ACA to raise their profile, get new members and even raise a bit of money.

And in regards to the festival, you say the ACA has been asking "particular individuals" for help. Well, it obviously hasn't worked, has it? Maybe they shouldn't have been so "particular". Maybe an national call for help should have been sounded months ago.

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.


nmonteith

15-Sep-2009
12:19:01 PM

I'm not quite sure why i'm answering these questions as i'm not the ACA but here goes! :-)

On 15/09/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>At some point there was $500 and at some point it was decided it would
>be better spent on sponsoring an overseas trip.

If it was anything like CRUX that $500 was probably one of the ACA founders money!

>If the ACA had thrown a few $$ towards the track work at Barden's they
>would have got their web address branded onto one of the wooden steps,
>like Summit Gear did. That's raising the ACA's profile and showing that
>they contribute to local projects.

maybe - but the Bluies locals have a bit of a habit of making outsiders unwelcome. They like to
manage their own problems themselves.

>And in regards to the festival, you say the ACA has been asking "particular
>individuals" for help. Well, it obviously hasn't worked, has it? Maybe
>they shouldn't have been so "particular". Maybe an national call for help
>should have been sounded months ago.
>
>Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.
>

Organizing a festival is a HUGE job that can't just be handballed to some random guy who pipes up on
the net and offers to help. The 2007 festival didn't require a call to arms to get organized did it?


wallwombat

15-Sep-2009
12:38:50 PM

On 15/09/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>I'm not quite sure why i'm answering these questions as i'm not the ACA
>but here goes! :-)

>If it was anything like CRUX that $500 was probably one of the ACA founders
>money!

I understand that. I still think it could have been spent in better ways.

> the Bluies locals have a bit of a habit of making outsiders
>unwelcome. They like to
>manage their own problems themselves.

People involved in the track work days aren't just Blueies locals. People travel up there to help too. I'm sure if the ACA offered to donate some $$$ towards the day, it wouldn't knocked back. Everyone likes money.

>Organizing a festival is a HUGE job that can't just be handballed to some
>random guy who pipes up on
>the net and offers to help. The 2007 festival didn't require a call to
>arms to get organized did it?
>

Initially, it did Neil. The 2007 festival website had a call for volunteers to help organise and run the festival. Eventually they had enough people helping and they had to politely decline the many other offers of help. I suspect some of those volunteers were random guys and girls who piped up on the internet.


rodw

15-Sep-2009
12:48:18 PM

I personally think the ACA is a great idea but from all my years of climbing Ive noticed climbers, be it individual or groups are territorial about there own little corner in the climbing world ...and are generally adverse to change or any concept of outside influence.

Years ago when I started Cragx website I tried to get together a new routes database and gave up after much resiatnce from those with the info. Unlike ACA I gave up, so kudos for them for trying....and can definately see were kyles frustration might be coming from as wombats post would be pretty much the attitude they would cop in general.


nmonteith

15-Sep-2009
12:50:46 PM

What the festival needs is not the smaller players - but it needs the main leader/organizer. Someone who is in charge of the whole thing. Without that person it's just chaos. I think thats the major problem. There is no point in organizing the nitty gritty if its not going to get off the ground at all.


rodw

15-Sep-2009
12:52:56 PM

On 15/09/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>Do you think the American Alpine Club or the Access Funds only donated
>their support to projects that they can take over and run?

Using the american organisation as comparison is a bit unfair....bit easier when you got corpoarte sponsorships to pay all your bills..

American Alpine club.....
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/documents/pdf/PartnersProgram.pdf

Access funds sponsors...
http://www.accessfund.org/site/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.4992449/k.C75D/Corporate_partners.htm
http://www.accessfund.org/site/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.4992451/k.CAEA/Community_partners.htm


Richard

15-Sep-2009
1:25:18 PM

What's needed here, is a plan about how to go forward, not to bitch about what happend in the past.

Otherwise, in 12 months time, we'll be bitching about how "somebody" did not do anything with the database, and now its been lost or whatever.

Look forward, not backwards.

What are the options? From my (very) limited knowledge, I suggest:
1. database goes to founders, disapears of the net
2. database gets moved to chockstone
3. database gets moved to VCC (or other site).

Its a national database, it probably should be on a site that represents all of Aus (ie VCC would not be my first preference), but it would be better anywhere on the net than not at all.

Is there a cost to host the info?

PS.

option 4: ACA gets some new blood and keeps going


wallwombat

15-Sep-2009
1:28:42 PM

I don't even know why I initially posted on this thread and now I've ended up sounding like I'm heading a bloody insquisition into the ACA.

Look, I think the ACA is a good idea too. I'm just not sure we are ready for that idea yet.
The general lack of interest and failure to really get the state organistaions to come to the table suggests I am right.

I think, for the ACA to continue to exist, it needs to examine what it CAN be, not what it WANTS to be. Start with attainable goals and go from there. Try to work with the other organisations, initially taking a very back seat role, if need be. Get a foot in the door.

You want members of the ACA who are also members of the VCC, SRC, CCA, etc, etc. Then you have voices in these organisations.

Donating $$ and getting involved in kids climbing, whether it be in the form of coaching clinics or junior comps or whatever. Get them early. The $$ spent on this will come back- kids have parents and parents have money. Some parents have lots. Have someone from the ACA there with the gift of the gab and a few dozen membership forms.

These are a few ideas.

I don't mean to sound all negative about the ACA. I do think it is a good idea and I am largely playing devil's advocate here. I hope it does survive in some form and then maybe it will grow. Who knows?

I think the Australian Climbers Association is a crap name though.

I reckon the Australian Climber's Coalition has much more ooomph!


wallwombat

15-Sep-2009
1:44:24 PM

Print off some TShirts with "I Got Routed on The Australian Route Register" or "My Name is on The Australian Route Register. Is Your's?".

They would be a big sellers and you'd be able to raise enough money to keep the data base afloat.

Sell em through Chockstone. I don't reckon that it's spam if it's going towards maintaining a national routes data base.


Capt_mulch

15-Sep-2009
1:44:45 PM

Mulchy lights the fuse and runs for cover:

>3. database gets moved to VCC (or other site).
>
>Its a national database, it probably should be on a site that represents
>all of Aus (ie VCC would not be my first preference), but it would be better
>anywhere on the net than not at all.

Ahhh, the CCA site??

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