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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 4 of 12. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 239
Author
34?
gfdonc
17/03/2004
1:17:25 PM
I'm also (refer rodw's last 3 postings) not advocating putting up routes involving a groundfall. But I'm not sure this is the issue, either. Routes involving a serious groundfall at a level of difficulty anywhere near the grade of the route are few and far between IMHO. And if you find one I won't complain if it sprouts a bolt. What is more at issue is the general principle of how well protected a route is. Falling any distance can be unsafe; falling a longer distance is thus unsafer; but doesn't mean all routes have to be protected to some discretionary minimum standard.
Clearly what the FA thinks is reasonable may be considered by others to be unreasonable. If so, use a toprope or climb elsewhere.
Perhaps at issue here is that gym-babies expect the natural environment to be as controlled and orderly as indoors? (he says, running and ducking for cover ..) ;-)
joemor
17/03/2004
1:36:55 PM
there is also a big difference between a natural bold route and a bolted bold route....
A natural line is bold because that how the rock formed... no choice.
a bolted line or sport line is bold because someone decided it should be that way. the fa chose where the protection points were to be placed. i feel that if that person did so and still made the route one in which you could hit the ground then they have failed in "placing protection". a route can still have big fall potentials and big runouts with out the risk of hitting the ground....

mixed routes are a whole ather kettle of fish....
gfdonc
17/03/2004
3:07:10 PM
On a lighter note, I'd also add that this whole game has changed since the advent of cordless drills. Back in the days when bolts were drilled by hand, much thought was required as to how the route could be protected with the minimum amount of hammering! Hence the 'sparse' protection in some cases - perhaps sometimes disguised as 'Ethics'.

hex-TROLL
17/03/2004
4:39:08 PM
WOMBBY(QURANK.COM) , you cyber-cross-border-raider you !

' ...it definitely adds flavour to our debates...' (17/3/4 @ QUANK)

' The HEX ' luvs ya vibe , dude !!

Luv, HEX
dalai
17/03/2004
4:46:57 PM
On 16/03/2004 kieranl wrote:
>Whatever. Yesterday morning I thought I had I a large tumour in my throat
>that would require major surgery and life-changes. Now I have a deformed
>wind-pipe that is "not normal but nothing to worry about".
>Climbing issues seem so trivial.
>Kieran

Hi Kieren,

glad to hear that you are okay.

Cheers Martin
climbingjac
17/03/2004
6:59:02 PM
Hi all,

Hereís the extract from the Editorial of Climbing Magazine # 225, November 2003.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ďTop climbs often take place in seclusion, which is as it should be. But since hard cash is involved Ė if not for the ascensionist then for the sponsored athletes who must match the feat Ė itís naÔve to ask everyone to take the claims completely on faith. To claim the top standard you need some exposure and credibility. Travel. Test yourself against the achievements of other elite athletes in your discipline Ė and please help the journalists fact-check your claims. Or, you can always keep your personal victory personal: donít rate it.

Artificial climbs also must be disallowed. Maybe your 9c+ is unrepeatable because you have albatross arms and pencil-thin pinky fingers and drilled yourself a made-to-fit route. Judges, do we allow it? Donít think so. Artificial climbs, bucks for big numbers Ė sadly we need some sort of rule book. If youíre claiming big numbers, play the game: climb other world-class routes, meet and climb with other world-class climbers, and donít chip."
kieranl
17/03/2004
10:35:23 PM
Hi Martin,
Thank you
Kieran

Tel
18/03/2004
3:43:16 AM
On 17/03/2004 joemor wrote:
a bolted line or sport line is bold because someone decided it should
>be that way. the fa chose where the protection points were to be placed.
>i feel that if that person did so and still made the route one in which
>you could hit the ground then they have failed in "placing protection".

Joe..just taking the above into consideration,
if my understanding is correct then the opposite of that statement (good protection) would make the route ok.
So then as a follow on what makes MA such a bad thing, isn't that also a sport route( i am judging by the pic in rock) that the FA basically decided it should be that way.
Then to further complicate matters taking into account Jacquis post ( thanks for posting that) wherein it says, "Artificial climbs also must be disallowed. . . and drilled yourself a made-to-fit route", isn't that what sport routes are though, designer routes.
So to me a + b + c says no sport routes....
bottom line is this is really confusing, but trying to understand.
help anyone?
terry
climbingjac
18/03/2004
8:18:50 AM
Hi Tel,

I think that the bolting issue needs to be kept separate from the chipping one. This forum topic is really about chipping. We've all kind of gotten off track a little (including me), but I think it's time to pull the topic back into line. The person who started it was clearly keen to generate some discussion about whether the chipping that went on on "Mechanical Animals" is in fact acceptable in the eyes of the climbing community.

Having said that, come forth with comments on the chipping issue. Is it acceptable? If so, when? If it occurs, does the climbing world accept the ascent as valid? If not, what does this mean, when the route was in fact declared as the country's most difficult? What are the implications where sponsorship is involved? What does it mean for the credibility of climbing as a sport in the eyes of the rest of the community?

Looking back over everyone's posts, these seem to be the questions that people are interested in hearing people's opinions on.

Thoughts, anyone?

jac
mikl law
18/03/2004
9:21:20 AM
The message is generally, it's ok if you don't talk about it (like I do) or get caught (like a few other well known people have done). Most harder routes have some form of cleaning or whatever, and lots i've seen overseas have "extensive removal of dangerous loose pebbles" (to quote from Greg Chiold and i on FFA of Undertaker). Most hardish things require a bit of careful cleaning that can always be construed as altering the climb, and ranges from comfortisning holds, and breaking off fragile flakes (which would go the first time they are weighted), to enhancing and drilling.

Glueing and reinforcing ranges from undetectable to gluing on bright red bricks.

I believe the rules are: is it aesthetic and natural? Tailoring to suit yourself is out (as most chipped climbs are...). Does the area need another greasy, chipped 3 ring circus? Or should the climber go and put up something worthwhile?

mousey
18/03/2004
9:32:27 AM
i think people are forgetting something here- while the offending hold on MA should not have been chipped, and it is a poor example for someone to set (especially someone as mediagenic as Ben), however I can't see how it invalidates the climb. The hold was to stop people from doing an alternative sequence, not to change the nature of the actual climb. What I don't understand is this;
couldn't Ben have just said that the climb did not encompass that hold if you want it for 34, then say if you use it you get 32 (or whatever it becomes) like MANY completely ethically correct climbs already in existence.....

Rupert
18/03/2004
10:07:17 AM
On 18/03/2004 Mighty Mouse wrote:
>couldn't Ben have just said that the climb did not encompass that hold
>if you want it for 34, then say if you use it you get 32 (or whatever it becomes)

Jeez thats a bit logical and rational isn't it? its so much easier just to bust holds off. ; )

There must be countless other climbs that have been downgraded after the initial ascent because subsequent ascents found an easier sequence of moves. Was this just an attempt to avoid that happening? How sad if it was.

This climb is an amazing achievement, at a grade that most of us can't even imagine climbing. But I personally think its really unfortunate that it was done in this manner.
Cheers,
Rupert

PS Kieran, I missed that post of yours earlier - glad things worked out.

runnit
18/03/2004
10:57:18 AM
So would I be right in summarising that . . . ?

- Removing dodgey/loose/dangerous holds is OK, but if you alter a route to force a style or grade, that's not cool

- On 18/03/2004 Mighty Mouse wrote: Ben have just said that the climb did not encompass that hold if you want it for 34, then say if you use it you get 32 (or whatever it becomes) -- personally i'm a big fan of Mighty Mouse's idea

- That high profile climbers doing things unethically is bad for the sport

- The achievement of a 34 is still pretty massive, it's just a bummer that it's been spoiled

and as a bit of a sidetrack

- Bolts should protect against ground fall or serious injury, but otherwise a runout is OK without being stupid about it (I know this is still pretty subjective)

Am I on track here?


mousey
18/03/2004
11:43:12 AM
absolutely

Richard
18/03/2004
1:09:05 PM
On 18/03/2004 BJ2 wrote:
>So would I be right in summarising that . . . ?
>
>- .... if you alter a route to force a style or grade, that's not cool

>- .... Bolts should protect against ground fall or serious injury, but otherwise
>a runout is OK without being stupid about it (I know this is still pretty subjective)
>
>Am I on track here?

I think your on track .. this was the (partial) contradiction I was trying to point ok. It seemed to me that it was reasonably accepted for the FA to force a style when that style was "bold", but not accepted to force a style when that style is a particular "sequence". I think a lot of interesting observations /coments were made along the way.

runnit
18/03/2004
2:54:07 PM
Ahh, I get ya. Good point.

Do you reckon it's harder to train for a climb that you physically can't do or that you get psyched out on? (greater perceived than actual risk)

If it takes longer to develop the strength + technique than to be able to not freak about a long (not ground) fall, then I could see why maybe run out bolts are a bit more accepted. Depends on the route I guess?
joemor
18/03/2004
3:55:59 PM
richard... theres a big difference between boldness and sequence.... but i get your drift..
James
18/03/2004
4:29:05 PM
someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I am aware, the current thinking in regard to coaching is that the effort required to get up a route is....
1/3 physical (pure force/strength)
1/3 technique
1/3 mental

arguably the mental side would have more bearing for the average climber on a run-out route.
joemor
18/03/2004
4:31:20 PM
james depends on the grade....
James
18/03/2004
4:35:00 PM
of course it does (I realise that), maybe its more accurate to say "....to get up a route at or very close to your limit...."

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There are 239 messages in this topic.

 

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