Goto Chockstone Home

  Guide
  Gallery
  Tech Tips
  Articles
  Reviews
  Dictionary
  Links
  Forum
  Search
  About

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

  Shop
FREIGHT FREE
in Australia

Edelrid: "Ultralight Helmet" (Turquoise) Mid blue .Fits 54 - 60cm Great heavy duty all-rounder. SUPER SPECIAL for a short time only!  $79.00
21% Off

Chockstone Photography Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints





Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 12. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 239
Author
34?
Onsight
12/03/2004
2:15:09 PM
I'm not saying chipping a 23/4 is acceptable either. Just that what happens at the top level has an influence on what is acceptable on all levels.

runnit
12/03/2004
2:49:55 PM
I have to agree with kent about people maybe getting too hung up on the grade of the climb rather than actually having a bit of fun just doing the climb. One thing I love about climbing, even if it's just bumming around on top rope at kangaroo pt with a bunch of mates, is that even if you're on an easy climb you can always make it harder for yourself if you want the satisfaction of pulling off some really gnarly moves.

I can definitely see how the drive to open up a new highest grade would be pretty massive and it's easy for someone like me to talk about ignoring it when i'm just happy kicking around on 18s, but physically changing the route just to massage your ego doesn't seem right.

Just get out there and enjoy your climbing, what more could you ask for = )

rodw
12/03/2004
3:01:03 PM
Its not on, and its totally different to cleaning loose rock thats gonna come off. You clean a route, taking off stuff "you know will come off", a slight tug will tell ya...then after that its only what comes off or comes loose while climbing the thing. Often your intial vision of the great sequence, you view before doing the climb, often falls by the wayside to reality as you find an "easier" sequence.. but that dosn't give you any right to destroy the holds to keep your vision intact.

He can have his "34" ascent...who cares... but maybe he should look at himself as to why he climbs...for himself...or for others and his ego???? and then reassess his justification for destroying a sequence someone else was trying?? The ole "its my bat and ball so it my rules" syndrome...time to grow up.
James
12/03/2004
3:04:06 PM
I think its a quote by John Sherman (?) in the Selected Gramps Guide that is along the lines of ethics are whatever style you do a climb in.... you can use whatever ethics you want so long as the ethics DO NOT AFFECT OTHER PEOPLE. Chipping (on or off) obviously affects other people & is so very not cool (regardless of the grade). Its the work of an moronic imbecile to smash holds off to avoid a route being undergraded.

PS Simon, whilst i has taken a bit for this issue to get onto Chockstone (victorians & all) numerous people down here knew about it but I think they were waiting for some perceived 'authoritative' source (ie you) to confim it.

alrob
12/03/2004
6:02:13 PM
thanks simon for your time writing the only accurate account of the situation.

i for one am not going to add anything else because i agree with you. i think you have clearly shown the ethical side (chipping is bad mmmkay) aswell as the realistic and consequencial side (some of the most highly respected climbers who I have spoken to about this issue have said that the ascent now isnít valid) of the issue.

phil_nev
13/03/2004
2:41:26 AM
Personaly, i cant imagine why anyone else would aspire to tick this route. In my oppinion, whats happened is just as bad as bolting on a extra hold on a blank section of wall, as was done on the route Oroju (A claimed 5.15). The only difference here is that instead of adding a hold to make the route posible, one has been removed and made it harder.

I agree with Kent, Grade 24 or 34 its wrong.

Ben is a great climber and im sure that he would have eventualy found that magical line, worked the moves and put in 100% and sent in fine style. I thjink Ben has let himself down, as im sure sending a real 34 would have been far more satisfying.

Phil

anthonyk
13/03/2004
1:15:50 PM
On 12/03/2004 onsight wrote:
>On 12/03/2004 anthonyk wrote:
>>yeah, apparently his brother was trying a sequence with reachier moves
>>that he couldn't (or chose not to) use. so he chipped them off.
>>
>>yeah sure its dodgy, but i think its pretty funny too :)
>
>Pretty funny? Dude, you have no idea.

yeah alright, i know this is a lot bigger issue for some people than others, and sure ethics affect us all. but i do have to say that from the outside it does seem a bit rediculous at times.
RD-Sticky
13/03/2004
5:45:16 PM
Ok, it has taken a lot to get me to write on Chockstone, as from what I have read it is full of half-
truths and people stirring shit. Ben is a very nice guy and bar one or two of you, you donít know
him, so stop talking about his ego, or reach, or what he did. For you donít really know his
motivation for it. Simon doesnít even know as he has not spoken to Ben about it. Unless you
want to tell him yourself, keep him out of it, as it is really a discussion on chipping or enforcing a
sequence not about Ben.

I donít believe that chancing a route after it has been done is the right thing but Ben is definitely
not the first person to do it. There are many good, and not so good climbers in Australia and
around the world that chip. Many of the first really hard routes in every country have been
chipped. People have repeated them and gone on to put up there own natural lines. He is a great
young climber, if you look at the era in which he started climbing and people he climbs with, you
will see that he is a product of his environment; just as people in Victoria are product of their
environment. NSW vs. VIC, to bolt or not, we are the way we are from our upbringing.

I donít believe that if you top rope a climb you can say you have done the climb, if you pre place
natural gear then itís a sport climb, if you arenít pushing yourself to your limit itís boring, using
Poff(resin) is cheating, ground fall bolting is stupid, one piece of natural gear on a sport route is
f#@ked. But why would I expect everyone to follow my line of thinking?

I believe that everything goes around in circles- fashion, trends, and chipping will come, go and
come again, as people see things in a different light at different times. We can only really have
our own opinions and do want we think is right at the time. As in any sports there are different
aspect to it eg jogging, running, sprinting, marathons, no one aspect is more valid than the next,
unless you have a emotional attachment to it. There is a lot of rock in the world- if you donít like
the way a certain route is done then donít climb it!

Richard Dale "Sticky"

rodw
13/03/2004
7:34:19 PM
I was commenting on the "facts" raised in this forum, be they truth or not. If it happened the way its stated....only ben really knows...I was giving my opinion on it. I think you have the analyse these apparent situations otherwise ethics, accepted practice etc can't be developed. People cant make informed discisions, without listening to everyones opinion. How can they say their opinion is informed? (Its like a born again saying the Koran is evil without even reading it oe vise-versa)

Your right Richard there is plenty of rock out there, and everybody will have slightly different opinion as to how to use it, and in the end you can walk 5 metres to the right and do another line, but if any action taken "destroys" a sequence through destruction of solid holds I will always consider that narrow minded and self centered, as it takes away any future choice of other climbers. Its my opinion only, i don't care if others agree (i dont expect them to), but considering this is a forum designed for discussion I am gonna discuss stuff....its better than actually working anyway.

Im not slagging off Ben, the facts may be way wrong, but in general thats how I think if the scenario did take place, iresspective of who would do that deed.

hex-TROLL
14/03/2004
2:00:37 PM
On 12/03/04 , Onsight wrote : ' I've had my spray .Now let's hear what you folks have to say about all this.'

OMMMMMMMMMMMM---OMMMMMMMMMMMM---OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
' Stop , look , and listen , baby-----that's my philosophy'

Luv , HEX (watching the 'petri-dish' from the Mountain-Top )

Wonderdog
15/03/2004
10:05:54 AM
Hex, what route did you take to get to the top of that mountain... I've rapped that route and there are suspicious holds and there's a bolt right next to a bomber 0RP placement...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
15/03/2004
10:37:48 AM
Bomber # 0 RP placement?
Is there such a thing?
climbingjac
15/03/2004
1:07:02 PM
Hi RD-Sticky. Your first post is articulate and comprehendable by others. As such, Welcome! We need lots of opinions on this matter.

Regarding your comment:
"Unless you want to tell him yourself, keep him out of it, as it is really a discussion on chipping or enforcing a sequence not about Ben."

The above-mentioned comment confuses me a little. This forum topic was entitled "34?" and the person that started the topic made specific reference to Mechanical Animals. As such, it was my understanding that this topic was SPECIFICALLY about Mechanical Animals. As a natural course of progression, it has morphed into a broader question about the ethics of chipping. Ben is a person performing at the top if his sport in Australia, and as such, much of what he does will be "in the public eye" so to speak. Until now, this has probably worked really well for him - earned him sponsorship and so on. Taking into account the attention that this incident has generated, he may now be wishing that he wasn't as well known as he is. Who knows.

There are a few big problems here. Let's say you were making a modification to your kitchen at home. It's your own personal asset, so go for it. No-one cares. It's your kitchen anyway. No-one else has to look at it or use it. Rock, however, is a public resource. As such, when a modification is made due to danger of holds snapping off, people are usually pretty happy that someone has taken into account public safety. When, however, modifications are made for other reasons, people are likely to get ticked off for a variety of reasons......

Richard
15/03/2004
1:19:31 PM
>There are a few big problems here. Let's say you were making a modification
>to your kitchen at home. It's your own personal asset, so go for it.
>No-one cares. It's your kitchen anyway. No-one else has to look at it
>or use it. Rock, however, is a public resource. As such, when a modification
>is made due to danger of holds snapping off, people are usually pretty
>happy that someone has taken into account public safety. When, however,
>modifications are made for other reasons, people are likely to get ticked
>off for a variety of reasons......

Hey, I have to agree with that. As someone else said, "Your ethics don't matter unless they affect me" (or words to that effect).

If rock is public resource (and I think it is), how come we are getting so mad at the FA chipping, but when the FA says "you can't place a bolt here" or "can't do X to my route", and are also affecting the ethic we use on the climb, we seem to automaiclay unquestionly accept the FA's right to the route??

I don't see much of a difference..??

Not meaning to stir, I just see a conundrum here...

Cheers
Steve M
15/03/2004
1:20:55 PM
"Sticky" you can't possibly be trying to justify to people that actions cannot be judged unless you know the person or know his motivations. Nobody cares why he did it, nobody is saying he is not a nice person or whatever. All that is totally irrelevant to whether modifying routes to suit your desires (easier or harder) is acceptable. I'm sure if I turned up to Diamond Cliff with a jackhammer to put up a route the way I wanted it you would'nt have such a care free attitude.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
15/03/2004
1:42:30 PM
On 15/03/2004 Richard wrote:
>how come we are getting so mad at the FA chipping, but when the FA says "you can't >place a bolt here" or "can't do X to my route", and are also affecting the ethic we
>use on the climb, we seem to automaiclay unquestionly accept the FA's right
>to the route??
>I don't see much of a difference..??

Good point Richard,
Maybe it is to do with the climbing communities 'sense of fairplay' and choice?

Choosing not to clip a bolt that you ethically disagree with is one thing. Choosing not to climb a route because it is too runout due lack of pro is another, but being denied the opportunity to climb on natural holds that were there originally is not fair play.

One set of ethics does not impose an irrevocable constraint on following parties, but the other set does.

shmalec
15/03/2004
2:14:29 PM
There are a couple of issues here.

One relates to ethics of damaging the rock to construct a climb. This issue has been around since the dawn of time and I think generally understood. It basically comes down to the rest of the populationís right to enjoy the rock in its natural state without damage or vandalism. It has an extra dimension in this case though. As I understand it Ben is claiming that this is the hardest climb in the country. There is a lot to be gained by setting the hardest route in the country. Changing the route so that it suits his climbing strengths and forces others to climb the route in this way makes it harder for them to take advantage of the benefits of being in the spotlight.

The other issue relates to when he changed it. The route he climbed is not the same route. It has been changed. And the change is designed specifically to favour the way that he climbs. He may not have used those holds and may be able to repeat the ascent, but its not the same route now.

Personally, I think itís a piss poor example to set the rest of the climbing community who often idolise climbers of Benís ability. We all make ethical choices when we climb and those who are new to the game are often unaware of the issues or the fact that the route they are climbing will see hundreds or thousands of ascents after they finish it.

Richard
15/03/2004
3:10:29 PM
>Choosing not to climb a route because it is too runout due lack of pro
>is another, but being denied the opportunity to climb on natural holds
>that were there originally is not fair play.
>
>One set of ethics does not impose an irrevocable constraint on following
>parties, but the other set does.

Hey A5, thanks..., but I am not so sure I am quick to agree entirely.

If a climb is dangerously run out, then do you really have a "choice" about climbing it? I think in both cases you are denied the climb. OK, there is slightly more choice than if the holds are not there, becuase you may not care about safety, or the climb maybe so easy for you it doesn't matter. But it just seems to me, the protest made about chipping this grade 34 climb is out of proportion when compared to the ease at which the FA's control over say, not allowing fixed pro to be placed on a run-out. In both cases, the FA is controling how I do the climb - and denying it to me.

As a relative newcomer to rockclimbing, do i see things more clearly, or less clearly??

Cheers....
gfdonc
15/03/2004
3:24:20 PM
Yeah, Richard, right. I feel forever aggrieved being denied the chance to climb Mechanical Animals 'cos it doesn't have enough holds, so I'm gonna get me some epoxy and some nice incut jugs and change the route a bit so I've got a chance of climbing it.
So replace "holds" with "bolts" in the above and what's the difference? Yes, if there is a runout you do have a choice to climb or not to, and in this context "ability" is measured in the mental as well as physical spheres.
IMHO there are plenty of 'sport routes' around to try yourself out on without having to get all upset that that nice looking 22 (or 12, or 32, or whatever) on the wall around the corner has got a runout that is beyond your ability.

hex-TROLL
15/03/2004
3:52:18 PM
On 22/02/2003 , A5 wrote : ' I have been climbing now for thirty seven years and am still a bumblie ; though I like to think that I am doing some things right or I would not be here to type this ! ( Maybe egotism is an antidote for bumblyism ? ) '

You're no 'bumblie' , dude !!!
Your ideas, and EXPRESSION of those ideas, make you one of the great 'unsung' climbing philosophers in Australia .

' It aint fiction,
it's just a natural fact'
A5iswhereitsat !!!

Luv, HEX (with 'backing-vocals' by Paula Abdul)

 Page 2 of 12. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 239
There are 239 messages in this topic.

 

Home | Guide | Gallery | Tech Tips | Articles | Reviews | Dictionary | Forum | Links | About | Search
Chockstone Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography

Please read the full disclaimer before using any information contained on these pages.



Australian Panoramic | Australian Coast | Australian Mountains | Australian Countryside | Australian Waterfalls | Australian Lakes | Australian Cities | Australian Macro | Australian Wildlife
Landscape Photo | Landscape Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Fine Art Photography | Wilderness Photography | Nature Photo | Australian Landscape Photo | Stock Photography Australia | Landscape Photos | Panoramic Photos | Panoramic Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | Mothers Day Gifts | Gifts for Mothers Day | Mothers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Mothers Day | Wedding Gift Ideas | Christmas Gift Ideas | Fathers Day Gifts | Gifts for Fathers Day | Fathers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Fathers Day | Landscape Prints | Landscape Poster | Limited Edition Prints | Panoramic Photo | Buy Posters | Poster Prints