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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 6 of 15. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 260 | 261 to 280 | 281 to 288
Author
Tiger Wall - Dribble Bolting?
robertsonja
20/08/2009
1:53:45 AM
Sure this is only one climb and two bolts on some distant end of Tiger wall, so who really cares anyway? – the issue is retro-bolting belays for dubious reasons and precedents set.

So, a hundred posts and counting…..and no one has come with up with credible reasons why this belay has been bolted?

In summary: Reasons so far pertain to human limitations rather than limitations of the rock/route.

“at the end of a 50m pitch prospective leaders may have limited gear” – so what?, get more gear, climb a shorter pitch, break it up.

“leaders may have limited experience to create a suitable anchor" – so what? get more experience.

“placements are of dubious quality” – there are placements to build six anchors, some placements better than others, some no doubt of dubious quality, but enough to build an safe anchor.

Lack of consultation, beside people who actually climbed with the bolter.

"the route never had a clear route description” – irrelevant to the 3rd belay, who cares what a guide book says.

“was covered in lichen and moss on the first two pitches – irrelevant to the 3rd belay

"the route had dangerous loose blocks – irrelevant to the 3rd belay.

Was given zero stars – irrelevant to the 3rd belay

“end result is a vastly improved trad climb” – it is not improved, it is degraded, it is now a mixed route.

“made more fun by the fact that she didn’t have to faff around setting up an anchor” - whether she finds this belay ledge fun or not is not relevant to the rock.

“this thread is ridiculous” – don’t read it then.

“you forget to add safety in there” – it is not a safety issue.

“easy access/retreat is a positive to for most non-commercial climbers” – this is not an access or retreat issue, this is the third belay of a 4 pitch route.

Simey - “I agree that a bolt belay seems a little out of place on a naturally protected 120m route” – that is exactly the point, bingo!

“But having done a fair bit of work in checking out and cleaning this route, it became apparent that this was an exceptionally good climb at the grade offering excellent natural protection for the entire length... apart from a shitty third belay. Sure you can faff around and equalise 5 or 6 pieces in shitty rock and create a safe belay” – yes it has excellent natural protection for the entire length, period. You only need to equalise any of three of the dozen placements, take your pick, or belay from somewhere you are comfortable.

“but it just seemed out of character compared to the rest of the route” – yes the bolts are out of character.

Simey - “I am more than happy to pull my bolts out of dribble if….” - why drill holes if your happy to pull your own bolts out if...?

“the belay maybe troublesome” not all belays were created equal, so what, be troubled.

“I will definitely make an effort then to camouflage the bolts” – don’t worry, I’ll give you the hangers back and you can paint them pink with little purple poka dots.


The good Dr
20/08/2009
9:02:45 AM
The two bolts (degradation/damage at 2 locations) will stop damage/degradation to the rock in multiple (at least 12 from the original post) locations from continual placement and removal of natural gear. Particularly salient where the rock is a little suspect.

ambyeok
20/08/2009
9:22:33 AM
On 20/08/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>who cares what a guide book says.

Um.... maybe inexperienced people who climb grade 11 care?

nmonteith
20/08/2009
9:38:37 AM
I suggest if you are so precious about removal of a couple of grams of rock to create two small holes then you better just stop climbing altogether. Placing trad, scuffing feet, trundling, rapping off trees all wears out the natural environment. Bolts are an easy target, but there is plenty of other damage being done in the process of even the most alleged 'ethical' ascent of a trad route.

rodw
20/08/2009
10:23:59 AM
In reference to your last post/summary Jason, you missed a quote and reply so I did it for ya...

"You are an anti bolt fundamentalist who like the climate change lot are not going to be reasoned with as you consider yourself right beyond all arguement." - very true, relevant to all your previous dribble.
surfinclimb
20/08/2009
11:41:59 AM
For a while there Robertsonya you had me quite fooled. I thought that you were just a climber that had an opinion and were quite vocal about it. Now I believe that I know what you truly are and that is a troll. Someone that likes to cause trouble and be annoying to the general chockstone forum.
If by the off chance you are not a troll I think you might need to get off your high horse and expect that people are not going to consult with you before placing bolts just like I understand that people dont consult with myself about these same things either.
If you do want to be consulted in future I recommend that you:
A) Move to the Mount so you are around for people to consult you.
B)Join the V.C.C and bring it up at meetings.
C) Join S.C.V for the same reason.
D Spend 30 years climbing at the Mount, establish many new routes and get a "feel" for the ethics of the area.
hero
20/08/2009
11:59:08 AM
>D Spend 30 years climbing at the Mount, establish many new routes and get a "feel" for the ethics of the area.

Hmnn, did that. Do you think Simey cares about my opinion?


IdratherbeclimbingM9
20/08/2009
12:45:39 PM
On 20/08/2009 hero wrote:
>>D Spend 30 years climbing at the Mount, establish many new routes and get a "feel" for the ethics of the area.
>
>Hmnn, did that. Do you think Simey cares about my opinion?
>
>

I guess that is what it all comes down to then.
~>Respect or the lack thereof (for both rock and people).

Have not climbed the route, but am now interested to see what the fuss is about.
Philosophically I tend to agree with robertsonja, but acknowledge it is a very grey area / matters of degree, etc.

It also raises in my mind the following thoughts/questions ...

If this was done 'back in the days'; then a ledge of that size would even lend itself to a simple waist belay!
I am not advocating being unsafe, just commenting on how the times change-

If I was to put up a 'death route' by deliberately not having a bolted belay where nothing safe is available, but a belay is necessary, with the whole purpose of my first ascent of that route being that it is a 'death route', would the same debate be had?

Yeah, I know, drifting off topic.
I will enjoy it further from the sidelines...
otmab
20/08/2009
5:07:33 PM
I wonder what Chockstone would have said if the question 'OK to bolt this belay?' had been posted to the forum before bolting. I reckon there'd be a lot fewer 'Who gives a rat's ass?' posts in that thread!! I'm not advocating asking this forum before doing any bolting, of course. Separately, I wonder what Chockstone would have said if the exact same bolts were discovered (thus, providing the exact same benefits), but someone other than Simon had placed them there.

Sarah Gara
20/08/2009
5:13:02 PM
What grade do you climb at Robertsonja?

11 is not an unreasonable route for fairly new climbers/leaders to attempt. Where are people supposed to get more experience?

I think you are being a little too forceeful in your last post. You obviously haven't really taken in anyones (MORE IMPORTANTLY MINE!!!! -capitals for you olbert!) feedback and are not going to be changed in your mind set so why both discussing it further.

>robertsonja wrote:
>> don’t worry, I’ll give you the hangers back and you can paint them pink with little purple poka dots.

Did i understand your comment above correctly in that you are going to remove the bolts??

did this thread (and the vote thread) really just completely pass you by.

As someone has just said -bring it up with the VCC before chopping bolts

and on a much more important note i think that pink and black polka dots would be much more acceptable as a colour. x


Sarah Gara
20/08/2009
5:14:49 PM
On 20/08/2009 otmab wrote:
>I wonder what Chockstone would have said if the question 'OK to bolt this
>belay?' had been posted to the forum before bolting. I reckon there'd
>be a lot fewer 'Who gives a rat's ass?' posts in that thread!! I'm not
>advocating asking this forum before doing any bolting, of course. Separately,
>I wonder what Chockstone would have said if the exact same bolts were discovered
>(thus, providing the exact same benefits), but someone other than Simon
>had placed them there.

i think I would have probably said don't bolt it. but that's not really the point now. It's been done. x

SwineOfTheTimes
20/08/2009
5:26:12 PM
On 20/08/2009 Sarah Gara wrote:
>
>As someone has just said -bring it up with the VCC before chopping bolts
>
The only thing the VCC policies and ethics effect is VCC members, not the general climbing community.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
20/08/2009
5:34:31 PM
On 20/08/2009 SwineOfTheTimes wrote:
>The only thing the VCC policies and ethics effect is VCC members, not
>the general climbing community.

I understand your point, but disagree when it comes to access issues.
In my experience Parks Vic are much happier to deal with VCC as the representative body for climbers in general, rather than heaps of individuals. To that end VCC policies and ethics have a profound effect on the general (especially Vic), climbing community.
otmab
20/08/2009
5:40:45 PM
>i think I would have probably said don't bolt it. but that's not really
>the point now. It's been done. x

Then.... what _is_ the point now?
Fish Boy
21/08/2009
8:50:42 AM
robertsonja has the right idea.

Sarah Gara
21/08/2009
8:57:17 AM
I f i could refer you to the well thought out respones wendy has written in the chopping bolt thread.

And also lower down on the chopping bolt thread someone mentioned about someone dying after a bolt was chopped. Now that's highly unlikely on dribble

Those bolts will make a lot of beginners feel a lot safer at a didfficult place to put gear. fair enough I coped but I had sols rack if I was on my own i wouldn't have.

if someone BLOODY says -get more gear or experince -I'll cry... we are going in circles here.

I still think the bolts should stay - how is the rock going to get repaired? damage is done - might as well chalk it up to experience and get over it. x
Fish Boy
21/08/2009
9:49:14 AM
Even if people die in certain places climbing Sara, it doesn't mean we have to put bolts in. Honestly, who cares if it makes beginners feel safer? I'm a little above a beginner and feel unsafe/scared often, it is ME that has to step it up, not the rock that has to be damaged!

Leaving the bolts there could set a precedent...in fact I doubt this is the first time simey has retroed a belay. Watchtower Crack anyone?

Get out there and take responsibility for yourselves....

IdratherbeclimbingM9
21/08/2009
10:17:03 AM
On 21/08/2009 Sarah Gara wrote:
>Those bolts will make a lot of beginners feel a lot safer at a didfficult
>place to put gear. fair enough I coped but I had sols rack if I was on
>my own i wouldn't have.
>
A couple of questions to satisfy my curiosity. ☺

Would you have chosen to do this climb if you were using your own normal rack?
[I note you wrote on 18/08/09;
>Had i been climbing on my rack -one set of nuts and hexs]


With the benefit of hindsight, do you think that climb could be done differently by yourself (and still feel reasonably comfortable/safe), regarding how you use the pro available on your own rack?
chalkischeap
21/08/2009
10:58:01 AM
If we didn't have people like robertsonja there would be twice as many bolts at Arapiles.

Sonic
21/08/2009
11:09:16 AM
Hey, here's an idea. I'll bring my drill when I come down in a few weeks. Being a sport climber I'm sure I can find plenty of lines to bolt.

Now before you all start up - I would be bolting lines that would improve MY experience at the mount. Just the same as robertsonja is bitching purely because HIS experience is being 'diminished' by 2 bolts. Can anyone else see how stupid this is?

If you spent more time climbing and less time complaining, maybe you could actually climb higher grades and get on something worth spewing about.

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There are 288 messages in this topic.

 

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