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Ben Nevis - Shame on you. What a waste of a crag.


evanbb

10-Aug-2009
10:19:36 AM

On 10/08/2009 ado_m wrote:
>Fix it up - it is about time that safety and reasonable bolting standards
>trump a first ascentionist "rights" to leave a crag in a poorly bolted
>(thus unused) condition!

This could easily degenerate into pointless bolting wars, but I totally disagree with this point. What you're suggesting is that every crag should be bolted for the lowest common denominator. Why does every crag need to be used to it's maximum? Why do others have to come down to your level? You might think it's unsafe, maybe you're just not good enough?

I don't think you are good enough or not, but just because you think it's unsafe, doesn't mean it is. There will always be someone who thinks a climb is unsafe; do we rebolt it to accomodate them? Do we put ladders up Everest because it's too hard without them?

Note this is coming from someone whose scope of climbing areas is thus pretty small. I know my limitations and I climb within them. Maybe you should try the same?

adrian

10-Aug-2009
10:54:45 AM

On 10/08/2009 evanbb wrote:
>Do we put ladders up Everest
>because it's too hard without them?
>

Yes.

hero

10-Aug-2009
11:01:05 AM

JBN, you're approaching this all wrong. I went to Ben Nevis one day with the Good Captain, had a great day, decided there was lots of potential for new routes but they would have easy sections in them, Coming down the hill listening to Transvision Vamp, we rolled the car and I was trapped in it with my hand mashed in the door and petrol pissing everywhere and the stereo still blaring. Had to lever my hand out of the door. Got a lift down the hill, had no luck finding medical help, hired a car and drove back up the hill, one handed, loaded everything from the now stripped car and back to melbourne. Finally got xrayed at 4am.

Now that's a good day. Full of adventure.

One Day Hero

10-Aug-2009
12:38:11 PM

JBM, if you're all fired up about the dangerous bolts, replace them one for one with stainless, glue in carrots. No one I've heard from has a problem with replacing dangerous bolts with new, safe bolts of the same type.

Slabs and runouts go hand in hand. There is no logical reason why this is....it just is, get used to it.


Superstu

10-Aug-2009
12:44:48 PM

On 9/08/2009 JBM wrote:
>NOT the B-Y, is NOT Araps, etc. It's just a fun crag that could provide
>a lot more enjoyment if developed better.

I've climbed a lot at Ben Nevis and surrounding crags, and love it there, just the way it is. I've done most of the major routes and don't recall any major problem with the old bolts. There have been a few more recent additions with glue-ins if you are concerned, just go by the first ascent date. Or fix up the old ones replacing like-for-like as has been suggested earlier. The place certainly doesn't need development to bring it down to the standard of your average bolt-clipping gym bunnie. The place is unlikely to appeal to that set any way, the routes are on low angled granite, the grades are low, the cruxes short and often involve slabby balance moves, keeping your cool and choosing a good line. Fat ring bolts at cruxes would just make the place a bore, your steel and glue would be much better used somewhere else.... (like holding together the weetbix they call the bluies)

Fish Boy

10-Aug-2009
1:31:50 PM

I wouldn't mind doing Clouded Queen soon, but the 30 hook moves scare me. If there was a bolt every 3 metres the route would be much more popular. What a waste of a climb. The rock is here to serve us.


ajfclark

10-Aug-2009
1:39:29 PM

On 10/08/2009 One Day Hero wrote:
>Slabs and runouts go hand in hand. There is no logical reason why this is....it just is, get used to it.

Given that slabs and granite go hand in hand and granite is hard I'd guess that granite slabs ended up run out because drilling holes in granite takes a long time (or used to).


ado_m

10-Aug-2009
1:42:32 PM

On 10/08/2009 evanbb wrote:
>...You might think it's unsafe, maybe you're just not good enough? ...

Ouch!

Evan - There is alway some brit who's happy to solo anything in socks during a snow storm. Perhaps that's you. Doesn't mean the rest of us mortals can't wear shoes and use reasonable pro.

Or perhaps being from Canberra you don't appreciate how many shit granite crags there are in Victoria. They generally involve a fun drive, lots of choss, shit pro, friable rock, getting scared way way below your limit, praying for it not to rain, and drinking afterwards to celebrate not dying. I still visit them, because I like the adventure. But it would be nice if just ONE of them was marked as "open for decent bolting"! We might even get some fun sub 20 sport routes in this state, which would be a nice thing.

LET BEN NEVIS BE DECLARED TO BE THAT CRAG!

(I'm not saying that, for example, Pintle LHV needs a bolt after the crack runs out and you have a big run out...clearly, it's a classic, done all the time, leave it alone. But BH? Come on, let some common sense prevail...)

gfdonc

10-Aug-2009
1:47:41 PM

All this debate about bold first ascentionists is misguided. All the slab routes I ever bolted were hand-drilled, so long runouts were simply about minimising the amount of hammering required.

If I'd owned an impact hammer back then, the outcome would have been different.


evanbb

10-Aug-2009
2:01:27 PM

On 10/08/2009 ado_m wrote:
>On 10/08/2009 evanbb wrote:
>>...You might think it's unsafe, maybe you're just not good enough? ...
>
>
>
>Ouch!
>
>Evan - There is alway some brit who's happy to solo anything in socks
>during a snow storm. Perhaps that's you. Doesn't mean the rest of us
>mortals can't wear shoes and use reasonable pro.

No, I am very much not that person. At the end of the post I tried to make that clear. I am most certainly not the climber who's running things out without fear or nerves. I climb trad mostly because I can place more gear... I find a lot of sports routes underbolted. Which seems to be what the thrust of the initial post is; except the author wants to bring the climbs down to his level. The alternative is to go somewhere else. Do something else. It's what I do.


ado_m

10-Aug-2009
2:07:42 PM

On 10/08/2009 gfdonc wrote:
All this debate about bold first ascentionists is misguided. All the slab routes I ever bolted were hand-drilled, so long runouts were simply about minimising the amount of hammering required.

If I'd owned an impact hammer back then, the outcome would have been different.

------------------
Well gfdonc, you must have loads of FA around the place with carrots - honestly, if I asked politely would you be cool with me retrobolting your lines, assuming it was done in a decent fashion?


shiltz

10-Aug-2009
2:20:36 PM

I have to agree with superstu. The route finding is part of the appeal.
I haven't done all of the routes on Red Rocks though, some may be more run-out than others. The ones that I have done seem consistent with similar areas in Victoria.
It is actually good to be reminded about Ben Nevis, I haven't been there for a long time. Its a beautiful spot so long as its not to hot. Red Rock is definitely the spot to go, access to the North Cliff routes is not so great and the routes can be hard to locate - there is some nice climbing but the ones I have done there are quite patchy in quality.

gfdonc

10-Aug-2009
2:46:02 PM

On 10/08/2009 ado_m wrote:
>Well gfdonc, you must have loads of FA around the place with carrots -
>honestly, if I asked politely would you be cool with me retrobolting your
>lines, assuming it was done in a decent fashion?

Well, probably, yes. Depends on the route.
However, in some cases it's been done already, as might be found if you trawl the older postings on Chokky. Neilo's done more than his fair share as usual. However I always thought I had been misunderstood by the masses for the first bolt on Frankenstein and the Were Turkeys, the whole point of the route was to clip the first bolt without falling off and sliding down the gully, after that the fun was over.

rolsen1

10-Aug-2009
2:49:24 PM

On 10/08/2009 ado_m wrote:
> But it would be nice
>if just ONE of them was marked as "open for decent bolting"! We might
>even get some fun sub 20 sport routes in this state, which would be a nice
>thing.

I can't comment on Ben Nevis as I've never been there but Teneriffe is that crag (well protected climb is up to 70m), also Black Hill, Mt Alex.

Plenty of the climbs in the youies need 1 or 2 extra bolts but it ain't gonna happen so it is not worth worrying about. I'm not sure how many led ascents those 19/20s on gravel pit tor get but sure they would get many more with an extra bolt or two.

I reckon rather than worry about the bolting drive just a bit further up the road!

Fish Boy

10-Aug-2009
3:11:35 PM

A question of ethics? I took a bouldering pad because I'm a pussy.

10-Aug-2009
3:28:59 PM

Does anyone know when the road to millenium caves opens ?

gfdonc

10-Aug-2009
4:59:07 PM

On 10/08/2009 Fish Boy wrote:
>A question of ethics? I took a bouldering pad because I'm a pussy.

Yeah, that's the other example I keep getting asked to defend. I confess, these days I rap down it and clip a sling to the first bolt. Still don't think it needs another bolt in it though.


phil_nev

10-Aug-2009
4:59:24 PM

On 10/08/2009 kp wrote:
>Does anyone know when the road to millenium caves opens ?

Why do you care, you and I both know your never gona leave the dungeon!


nmonteith

10-Aug-2009
5:08:40 PM

On 10/08/2009 gfdonc wrote:
>On 10/08/2009 Fish Boy wrote:
>>A question of ethics? I took a bouldering pad because I'm a pussy.

That route is fine as it is! gruumphhhh...

Fish Boy

10-Aug-2009
8:30:55 PM

For sure, I wasn't saying to put a bolt in. I was just saying I'm a pussy.

There are 85 messages in this topic.