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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

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THE AUSTRALIAN RETRO/RE-BOLTING OPEN FORUM

climbau
27/08/2004
9:44:24 PM
On 27/08/2004 HEX wrote:
>On 27/08/2004 oweng wrote :
>
>>You could argue that deliberatly ommiting
>>a bolt on a run-out but easier section, is the pro-active chopping of
>a
>>retro-bolted run-out.
>
> Very interesting, but not clear --- please explain !
i reckon he means that if bolting in the first place is retrobolting, then not bolting could be construed as a preemptive bolt chopping exercise. Therefore, if the bolt originally didn't exist then there is nothing to chop, but if the bolt did exist then it would've been chopped. Hence
>>You could argue that deliberatly ommiting
>>a bolt on a run-out but easier section, is the pro-active chopping of
>a
Have I got it right oweng?

mousey
27/08/2004
11:31:41 PM
hex = +1?

oweng
28/08/2004
12:51:21 PM
Hex & Climbau,

Climbau’s on the money, I was poking fun at your argument that placing too many bolts is effectively retro-bolting a climb before you climb it. I took this to mean that at times people are placing an extra bolt because they are thinking ‘well I don’t need the bolt, but someone else might think its unsafe, so I’d better whack one in now to save it being retrobolted in the future’. Its not that I disagree with this, more that I wanted to point out that that argument can be continued easily by saying ‘well I don’t need a bolt here, but someone else might think its unsafe and retrobolt it, in which case I might as well whack one in now, but hang on if the climb does get retro-bolted it will probably get chopped by someone else anyway, so I might as well just not put the bolt in anyway.

Hmm, this is getting harder to understand than a David Lynch film!

HEX
28/08/2004
2:04:54 PM
On 28/08/2004 oweng wrote:
>Hex & Climbau,
>
>...I was poking fun at your argument that placing
>too many bolts is effectively retro-bolting a climb before you climb it.
>I took this to mean that at times people are placing an extra bolt because
>they are thinking ‘well I don’t need the bolt, but someone else might think
>its unsafe, so I’d better whack one in now to save it being retrobolted
>in the future’. Its not that I disagree with this, more that I wanted to
>point out that the argument can be continued easily by saying ‘well I
>don’t need a bolt here, but someone else might think its unsafe and retrobolt
>it

Keep poking away,bro --- it's very important to rationalise/realise the rationales of the ego-driven loonys down-under-down-under --- especially ,now that these crags are getting a lot of traffic from climbers-from-everywhere, who in turn may be pervertedly-impressed with these said ' safe ' climbs , and continue the practice else-where, 'safe-in-the-knowledge' that The Paradiso is a great crag , therefore lets copy this when we get home ! --- end result ? : bit like the c--k-roach that eats the poison-bait , goes home, dies, and is then eaten by its cannibal family&friends, who in turn die cos they too ate da poison...

Oweng wrote in ' Oink&hex-TROLL ', (never-mind a David Lynch film !) :

'...The Paradiso is getting more amazing too.I was down there last weekend, and the amount of bolts that have gone in since my last trip a month ago is amazing ! The Aquaphobia Wall is plastered in them...Visually it looks shocking , but I can't wait to try to climb them...'

Well clearly, part of the motivation of the obvious pro-active-retro-bolting, is to promote climbing ' tourism' : if people travel all the way to the arse-end of Australia, at ' the arse-end of the world ' (thanks Mr Keating --- not...), then the pro-active-retro-bolt-in-the-name-of-safety brigade will want to make sure the travelling punters get a simple,fast,user-friendly macdonalds-fix to take home and rave about --- even if the visual experience of the crag is synthesised as ' shocking '... ;

yaknowwha'Imean ?... Luv HEX...

'...unbelievably ugly and obtrusive ...' / fantastic climbs...?--- you're leaving a lot of muddy foot-prints on the rice-paper, grass-hopper...
------------------------
Neil --- careful in France not to become the fly in the pof ointment ...

nmonteith
28/08/2004
2:22:33 PM
... The Paradiso is one of my all time favourite crags. It is up there with any of the best crags in Australia. Totally three star! You still have to place trad on many of the routes - it is not a totally consumer driven crag...

HEX
28/08/2004
2:42:45 PM
On 13/02/04 Neil wrote :

' I am pretty good at speed-ticking crags...I did Hillwood, Ben Lomond, Coles Bay and Paradiso in 3 days in Tassie last Easter ! ...'

To witch Tasch responded with a touch of her lushious irony :

'...As long as you tick 'em as fast as you can, and don't stop to enjoy the view...'

Probably just as well you 'did' the place so quickly --- no time to soak up too much ' visually-shocking' poison...

nmonteith
28/08/2004
3:25:00 PM
I returned six months later and spent a further two days there! I would happily go back again....

HEX
28/08/2004
3:44:12 PM
Maybe you didn't notice all the pro-active-retro-bolted at-tros-ities cos you were totally distracted by Kent's silly hat...

nmonteith
28/08/2004
4:16:12 PM
yere Hexy - that hat was a classic! The bolts were ugly at the Paradiso but the quality of the routes far out-wieghed any problems I had with the visual aspect. Chalk was much more visable on the black rock than a few bits of stainless steel. A choss pile like Adamsfield didn't deserve the amount of bolts littering that crag however...

hex
28/08/2004
4:53:56 PM
Neil & Cube-arse on their merry-way to the air-port :

Comme un grand connard !
Hou ! Hou ! Hou ! Houuu !
Le pied dans le plat ! ...

Ca plane pour moi !
Ca plane pour moi !
Ca plane pour moi ! moi ! moi ! moi ! moi !
Ca plane pour moi !
Hou ! Hou ! Hou! Houuuu !
Ca plane pour moi !!!

Hou ! Hou ! Hou ! Houuuu !
WE ARE THE KINGS OF THE DIVAN !!!!!!!

Luv HEX & Plastic Bertrand...

HEX
30/08/2004
2:50:48 PM
On 27/08/2004 climbau wrote:

>Therefore, if the bolt originally didn't exist then there is nothing to
>chop, but if the bolt did exist then it would've been chopped...

>Have I got it right ... ?


There-in lays the decadent/indifferent dilemma ...--- once the bolts have been placed , and any amount of bolts is acceptable in such a grid-locked micro-environment/theme-park --- non of the pro-active-retro-bolts will be chopped or be deemed necessary to be chopped, because the action of chopping would be in such stark-contrast to the 'purity' of the sport-climbing paradigm, witch has deviously morphed and re-defined what is ' best-climbing-practices' at this particular space-time co-ordinate...


climbau
30/08/2004
8:19:28 PM
On 30/08/2004 HEX wrote:
>On 27/08/2004 climbau wrote:
>
>>Therefore, if the bolt originally didn't exist then there is nothing
>to
>>chop, but if the bolt did exist then it would've been chopped...
>
>>Have I got it right ... ?
>
>
>There-in lays the decadent/indifferent dilemma ...--- once the bolts have
>been placed , and any amount of bolts is acceptable in such a grid-locked
>micro-environment/theme-park --- non of the pro-active-retro-bolts will
>be chopped or be deemed necessary to be chopped, because the action of
>chopping would be in such stark-contrast to the 'purity' of the sport-climbing
>paradigm, witch has deviously morphed and re-defined what is ' best-climbing-practices'
>at this particular space-time co-ordinate...
>
>
And, indeed there is no law that states the maximum (or minimum) amount of hardware that can be installed into a piece of rock. But, as I think you are alluding to, there is a definite limit on the amount of hardware that can be removed. Removal = 0, replacement = "as much as you like".
How many sport climbers feel the cross over between modern sport climbing and Aid climbing. Not many I should think, yet what is it when you pull on runners and rest on ropes to the extent that many sport climbers do? And some even claim "sport" ascents through "aid" tactics. I put it to you Hex that sport climbing and Aid climbing are blurred to the point where the two may never be seperate again lest a posse of post-traditionalist ethically charged climbers storm the ramparts of modern sport climbing and claim back their heritage!

Sorry 'bout the philosophical tyrade.

dalai
30/08/2004
9:12:44 PM
Sorry Climbau, but you couldn't be further from the mark. Aid climbing is all about getting to the top by using the gear to do that. The sport climber is still focussed as an end result to climb the line with the gear and rope only to stop them from hitting the ground if they fall. Couldn't be much further from each other on the climbing spectrum.

oweng
31/08/2004
7:47:03 AM
I think the struggle between reconciling (spelling?) the visualy offensive nature of many sport climbs with the obvious enjoyment that can be derived from them is one of the things that I (and im sure many others) struggle with.

Just as in the past climbers struggled with the introduction of chalk, just as no doubt climbers struggled with the first uses of carrot bolts on trad routes.

Of course its worth noting that sports climbers wernt the originators of the ugly line of bolts. This distinction goes to aid climbers with their 'murder of the impossible' via the construction of A1 bolt ladders.

I've wavered a few times in my opinion on sport climbing, I look forward to wavering some more as the debate about bolting continues!

In relation to the Paradiso, its sprouted more bolts recently, most notably (to me) on a wall I had been working on as a potential hard-grit style trad climb. Now there's a case of someone retro-bolting a climb, prior to the first ascent!


mousey
31/08/2004
7:58:46 AM
>(and im sure many others) struggle with
yeh yesterday i handed in an 11 month research paper on the visual intrusions of climbing

oweng
31/08/2004
8:04:18 AM
At least that would be more interesting than some of the crap topics I covered in high school. There's probably a thesis in the endless ethical debates we while away our days rabiiting on about here.

HEX
31/08/2004
12:06:35 PM
tmarsh : '...pissy aid-bolts that get put in when the FA is bolting the route, and then never bothers to remove...'

pop-eye/mouse : '...some people put in bolts where they aren't required for pro...they put bolts in anyway purely for dogging and working the moves...'

Yes, very good examples of gratuitious ,' acceptable-once-it's-been-done-can't-really-do-anything-about-it-now-I-have-to-respect-the-'integrity'-of-the-first-ascentcionist, pro-active-retro-bolting...

If the route is very over-hanging , aid-bolts might INITIALLY be required to establish the route...

Dogging-bolts ?--- what's with these ? --- longer falls onto the next bolt below would significantly weaken that bolt with so many falls, while working the hard-stuff ?, there-fore place a bolt at ya hip ?...

These two examples would have to be the-mother-of-all-pro-active-retro-bolts --- thanks for the ideas, dudes --- OUR thesis is nearing completion ...

Luv HEX

--------------------------------
HEX, 31 AUG 2004 :" The vast majority of sport-climbing is nothing more-than glorified tope-roping "... muttered ' The HEX' as s/he thru the last remaining car-kiss into the cauldron...
---------------------------------

HEX
31/08/2004
7:18:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONGRATULATIONS hex, hex-TROLL ,HEX & assorted contributers !!!

You are here-by awarded the GOLD-STAR , GOLD-MEDAL, & NOBEL PEACE PRIZE for creating the first,in-au-grial, premier CHOCKSTONE-SUPER-SONIC-MEGA-THREAD
( 300+ posts & 5000+ views )

Silver medals go to Grampians Re-bolting & ' 34 '

Token bronze goes to Manufacturing

Honourable mention / novelty award goes to Mountaineer death on Cho Oyu...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
THANK YOU & CUL8R ; GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN, Luv HEX...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

END OF THREAD .

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

dan
31/08/2004
8:11:20 PM
I am from queensland, where we do not have the bolt everyhthing that dosen't move mentality. If there are natural formations use them, if it is sheer slab, bolt sparsely and conseal the bolts.

The naming rights remain forever and in eternity those of the first assentionist.

There are many, many fantastic crags discovered and yet to be discovered in NSW/VIC. Don't waste your time rebolting someone elses pride.

Dan

tmarsh
31/08/2004
9:05:34 PM
On 31/08/2004 HEX wrote:
>tmarsh : '...pissy aid-bolts that get put in when the FA is bolting the
>route, and then never bothers to remove...'
>
> pop-eye/mouse : '...some people put in bolts where they aren't required
>for pro...they put bolts in anyway purely for dogging and working the moves...'
>
> Yes, very good examples of gratuitious ,' acceptable-once-it's-been-done-can't-really-do
>anything-about-it-now-I-have-to-respect-the-'integrity'-of-the-first-ascentcionist,
> pro-active-retro-bolting...

Dogging bolts are a touchier issue. One person's dogging bolt is another person's eyesore
is another person's key piece of protection. Hard routes and dogging bolts often go together
and I for one aren't going to advocate chopping them.

8mm dynabolts with no hangers on them are nothing but a mess and should be pulled.
Radically overhung routes often *do* need aid bolts when going ground-up, but they are
really not that hard to remove and then patch.

I few years ago I bolted a ground-up cave route in the Grampians then got cold feet about
spoiling a beautiful cave. By the time the aid and protection bolts were removed and patched
there was no trace of anything ever having been there. It's really not that hard.

Although as Neilio says, maybe you should just get used to using aid gear.

Stirring the cauldron: what's with people who put up very runout hard routes with dogging bolts
between the sparse protection, work the route, tick it, then chop the dogging bolts leaving the
runouts intact.

tim

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There are 335 messages in this topic.

 

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