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General Climbing Discussion

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4:18:33 PM
On 16/04/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:
some would call it a swamp? (quagmire of grades!)

>which rises from the muddy waters to blossom (snip) ---maybe the E grade can un-muddy the waters
Those with 'clay feet' will still keep the waters turbid, and try to sanitise the bold lines.

> Luv [your colonial/aussies grief-complex with 'The Mother-Country'---maybe
>thats what (also) J.E.(sus) was reacting against...],
H-T 13/4
>obviously , to some, ' John isn't Jesus
Mr Ewbank was a pommie Ö Ďtis an unusual reaction to crucify the 'home country'.

The South Africans have utilised an (almost) replica of the 'J.E.(sus)' system.
I wonder if they feel the need to stuff up simplicity with E(dons) also?

>Luv,HEX.( Gone Yodelling up that valley again---eahhopeyafalldownacrevasshexieya#%^&@#!!!)
I'm democratic. I'd throw ya a rope. (may negotiate about anchoring the end though ... or light it like a fuse !!)

>A5---said the gazelle running in front of the lions jaws !!! Over&Out, Gentle-Dude.
>I luv the stench of the gazelle-droppings.
Gazelle ?, Addax (rare & endangered species)!
So, ... the lion not only has a large 'red' mane and a red dress, but can also hold her breath well during the long run-outs across the quagmire of grade systems, whilst simul-yodelling about the view from above the E(don) waterlillyline?

4:26:05 PM
Nicely put Rolsen, & the last bit sums up a major sources of retro-bolting pressure ---people having absolute epics when the 'need' to 'back off' spirals out of control, as their 'known limitations' are not equal to the task of making it back to 'safety'...

Luv,HEX (Havasafeweekendeveryone!)

Yeah , well they 'stuffed-up' the 'simplicity' of app-art-eyed didn't they...

KEEP THINKIN&WONDERIN BRO ---I luv the stench of the gazelle-droppings!

Luv,HEX.( Gone Yodelling up that valley again---yeahhopeyafalldownacrevasshexieya#%^&@#!!!)

1:09:29 AM
Re: Tel's posting of 16/4/04

Tel, thank you for your thoughts on what climbing is. If I understand correctly you are saying that that climbing is shaped by the moral judgements and edicts of the Predecessors. Presumably the Predecessors are the past masters of the non-sport and the aspirants (those of us still planning to lead XI) normally imbibe the lessons of the Predecessors from campfire oration. Are you then saying that climbing is an oral culture and the lynchpin in the system is the oracle (Hex-Troll), who is tasked with preserving the collective memory? I think Neil recently expressed wonder at Hex-Trollís command of history.

Tel, I think you describe Victorian climbing well, however, the further you get away from 'The Pines' the more things change. In the Blueys, climbing is definitely a sport, in Maple Canyon it is absolute bliss, in Spain itís one long party. The last time I was at the Pines you couldnít light a camp fire. Sad, but as you say, there is still this website for keeping our culture alive - we do William Gibson proud. Should we be jacking in instead of tying in from now on?

10:42:29 AM
' One long party in Spain ' ?--- Yeah , they're having a real blast of a time...

'...jacking in...' ?--- you might be doin' something else , dude !

Yeah, 10-4 on that , Philnev , snigger !

1:40:28 PM
Not very tactfull if your refering to what i think hexy.....

4:58:56 PM
Now that the tone has been set , it's time for >

A (true) SHORT STORY :

'...I , too , was climbing that day and was just about to commence a climb next to the one on which the woman fell (D MInor). After hearing her scream, followed by a sickening soft thud , I rushed across. She was rolling down the climb like a limp rag doll, BLOOD SPURTING FROM HER HEAD. Luckily ,her rope pulled her up before the bottom...her injuries would have been much more serious and may have cost her, her life. I then soloed up the climb to her...Semi-conscious, she was in a contorted position, the rope caught round her left arm. Blood flowed freely from her wound, over the rock and myself, eventually filling my boot to over-flowing. After stabilising her neck and airway to the best of my ability, we lowered her off the cliff...Subsequent X-rays showed serious skull and spinal fractures...The dangerous element of the sport [life-style ?] will always be there and is part of it's attraction...' ( Dr Mark Marriott , 1995 ).

With the high numbers of newbies (and others) being injured on 'easy' climbs , there may well be a strong case for 'sacrificing' D-Minor , to be RETRO-BOLTED WITH BIG, JUICY, RING-BOLTS.

ONE , well-known , introduction/TRANSITION climb , could well be a very good climbing-community 'investment' ; especially as D-Minor is already used for this purpose...

Intro to out-door climbing , lead-climbing , abseiling (off the top of the pinnacle), etc,etc,etc
Transition from gym>rock , town>country,etc,etc,etc

THEN ,once much confidence, and basic belaying, climbing , and abseiling skills have been quickly gained in a very user-friendly environment , can the intricacies of natural-gear placing be learned...maybe also on D-Minor , using the Ring-Bolts as very handy back-ups !...

Just a vague thought...


6:29:13 PM
Sad story and interesting thought. But my opinion is leave the climbs as they are.

I climbed D-minor at Easter and was surprised at just how good the protection was. Perhaps the issue is whether or not climbers are adequately trained in placing protection. Just say ring bolts were placed on bet is that everyone will just clip the bolts and not practice placing protection. Then when they do get on a bolder route they're stuffed.

I think learning how to place gear and make judgements on personal safety is the key. You can practice placing gear at ground level, you can top-rope and place gear or you can second a climb and see how gear is placed. Adding bolts will not encourage climber to practice gear placement.

3:50:06 AM
re; DBD's post 17/04

hey DBD, your first paragraph, either you are an acedemic or you are taking the piss out of me, if it is the latter....well knock yourself out, have your fun.

your second paragraph.... my thoughts stem a little further back than my recent trip to araps.
William Gibson...I have no idea. I can only guess that he has/had something to do with the internet possibly.
your last idea at all, though it seems inferences have been made by others.

10:10:02 AM
On 17/04/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:
>With the high numbers of newbies (and others) being injured on 'easy'
>climbs , there may well be a strong case for 'sacrificing' D-Minor , to
>ONE , well-known , introduction/TRANSITION climb , could well be a very
>good climbing-community 'investment' ; especially as D-Minor is already
>used for this purpose...

If it wasn't for the follow up posts of others - I assume this was a joke.

A short story (untrue)
A new cliff in inner suburban Melbourne has been found! Its discovery was made by the Huber brothers noted European hardmen who proceed to mop up all the concievable lines. The Huber brothers soloed all of the 45 climbs, giving them all 3 star ratings and ranging in grades from 13 to 28. All of the climbs are 50 metres high and have no worthwhile protection. The Huber brother's have repeated denied the requests of re-bolting Victoria to retro-bolt the climbs, this is dispite though the local council supporting such an action.

The first post of this thread pondered the ownership of climbs - this is the main problem: we somehow perceive the ownership (or first accensionist) to be revelevent. A bit like a dog pissing on a tree or kids touching cup cakes at a three years old's birthday party. In my view the person who climbs a climb first opinion on the state of that climb's protection should be no more important than any other person.

In my opinion, we let the first accentionist be the holder of the climb so that we as a climbing community can absolve ourselves of responsibility. In the same we embrace capitilism and absolve oursleves of the responsibity to the poor. Hence, Mark Latham wanting the poor to work harder - oh, that the Labour party would return to itself. If you climbed as hard as the first accencionist - no one would ever fall!

So if the first accencionist is irrelevant then what factors are relevant?
Maybe (and we can only choose one)
* whether the climb is safe for everyone, should someone/anyone take it upon themseleves to jump onto every piece of gear to make sure it holds and doesn't result in a ground fall. Placing bolts to supplement the dodgy or non existant places. Obviously the fall would come trying to clip the next piece.

* whether the climb doesn't damage the environment. Go to the gallery look at the mess there, the bolts the slings the chalk - in my view its a disgrace. Maybe there is an argument for its appearance in that location - but just imagine if all of cliffs looked like that. Compare it to the watchtower climbs, there are bolts on those but they are high and wide, out of view and do not diminish the experience of others.

Facing up to the challenge about how the climbing community relates to the cliffs/protection/destruction/safety requires us to do away with any property ownership rights of the first accentcionists.


ps. sorry this is another long ramble

11:16:50 AM
' ...we somehow perceive the ownership (or first accensionist) to be REV-EL-E-VENT...'

A revelation ? ; relevant ?, irreverent ? reviled ? ---the 'owner-ship ' thing needs sorting...

Luv , HEX

Damo , 18/04/04 : ' To the's very hot in here [the pig-sty], there's no beer (only fear) '

William Gibson : ' My favorite thing about the Internet is that you get to go into the private world of real creeps , without having to smell them' ; ' The net is a waste of time , and that's exactly what's right about it '

' a little dance , make a little luv , get down tonite , get down tonite...'

Tel--- that ditty is sticky !!!
8:46:42 PM
I used to be Bitter & Twisted but then I realised " I'm a negative creep and I'm stoned" (thanks Kurt).

Which point to start on?
E grades even though I thought this was a bolting forum. Ewbank takes into account protection (difficulty in placing. distance between and soundness[which in my opinion is if its crap then dont put it in])

Example: Serpentine originaly grade 31 as Malcom did it ground up putting in all runners on lead. (which I believe still awaits a true red point second ascent) But subsaquent ascents the protection was put in on abseil and whilst dogging it, hence it's grade of 29.

This assumption that an E grade in front of a number would some how magically give the climber an idea of the seriousness of a route is false. E grades can mean any number of things, yes it can denote big fall or ground fall potential but also how stenuous the route may be or how pumpy and fiddly the gear is to place.

Example: Using another HB route, Welcome to Barbados. Ewbank 29 ( which still awaits a second ascent with protection in place let alone putting all runners in on lead!) E grades it would be E8 5c or as you suggest E8 24-25. Get the picture or do I have to spell it out further. If you get to the bottom of a climb and look up and have no idea of what you are about to get into then you have no business being there in the first place.

The thing is that grades in the gym and grades in the real world do not coralate, and I think this is where the vast majority of the problem lies. The person who can do the blue route at which ever gym which is graded 24 gets out onto real rock pumps out half way up an 18 (because placing pro takes time and energy) falls off and strips all his gear and goes to hospital. (true story) There for, in his mind its an unsafe route.

It takes relatively little time and energy to safely climb the blue route in the gym, especially when your out to impress, but years to climb to the same technical ability on "Rock Climbs" (there is no such thing as trad climbing!!).[Rock Climbs can have bolts.

As for bolting D Minor I am assuming your post (hex) was just to see what sort of reaction you could stir up. I could go on but cant be stuffed. But I would however get my appathetic arse of the couch and go and chop them.

Other thoughts, Nobody is forcing you up there. Why not just top rope it if all your interested in is the moves? (that would require setting up an anchor which may involve runner placement.

P.S. If the latest hard man or woman cranking the desperates can only lead 14 on natural gear does this still make them good climbers??? (another true story)
10:41:28 PM
>If the latest hard man or woman cranking the desperates can only
>lead 14 on natural gear does this still make them good climbers??? (another
>true story)

A 'good' climber is whatever you reckon is good.

Personally I believe you must do alpine ascents of all 8000m peaks, onsight serpentine (placing only pitons on lead), drink 30 beers while soloing ozymandias direct in winter, and climb punks in the gym (without using the chipped hold), before you are a good climber.
10:36:53 AM
>This assumption that an E grade in front of a number would some how magically give >the climber an idea of the seriousness of a route is false.

of course its not a magic fix, but it would still be valuable. E grades won't take all the adverture (or 'unknown' factor) out of the climbing. As stated, the E grade should be the seriousness of the lead ascent. The unknown factor might be whether the route is run-out on easy ground, or if the gear is fiddly but on steep ground (hence a safe fall) etc etc.

The E grade shouldn't be affected solely by how pumpy/strenuous a route is, but more so it should be an indication of how pumpy & strenuous it is to placing the gear (ie most Nowra clip-n-go routes would be E1/E2 perhaps). another example: Sandinista would have a higher E grade than the 23s at the Gallery as you have to hang round & place gear.

the concept of a 'good' climber is even more subjective than grading systems.

1:30:27 PM
Joe--- that's not as think as you silly it is--- the late, great , Mark Moorhead was well on the way, (minus the beer ?),to achieving your criteria...

The biggest myth in Australian-climbing ? : that the Ewbank system 'takes into consideration'

The Ewbank system takes into consideration THE DIFFICULTY OF THE TECHNICAL CRUX OF A CLIMB ; A 30m ,grade 23 with bolts every metre is 'the same' as a 30m, grade 23 requiring tricky route-finding & well-spaced RP placements.

It is that ' sameness ' which drives the retro-bolting pressure, ( mainly from the 'sport' faction ), as they try to rationalise/deny their 'reality' of " Why can I send 27 on 'draws and yet freak-out approaching 22 ,when I have to start ' thinking ' about all those other ' considerations ' ...stuff it !!!--- just whack a few more bolts in ,so more(ons) people can 'enjoy' the climb."

How does the cyber-cauldron manage to smell so good ?!

3:37:10 PM
the Ewbank system was originally designed to take all those things into account, but I am with Hex here - in practise there is far too much emphasis on the technical moves & other factors are not adequately compensated for.

3:46:35 PM
2 grades '...for a fixed hanger...' ? --- oh dear, that IS mentzal as anything...

Any other 'convincing' examples ?: " aw, what about Serpentine ! "---yeah,right...

Standing up-wind of the cauldron, Luv,HEX.
9:24:37 PM
The Mentz/Tempest guide overdoes it in places. How about the first pitch of Yo-Yo: no added fixed gear and it gets bumped up to 14! It is glorious climbing but probably 11 or 12; it's certainly easier than Muldoon. First pitch of Watchtower Crack gets 12, I usually lead that pitch with one runner, no matter how badly I am climbing. I would call it 8 or 9.
10:54:42 PM
Hex, Dude... what makes you think i am being silly? Mark Moorhead well on the way to achieving the criteria? really and truly?? I think not. how many 8000ers alpine style?? punks WITH the chipped hold?? 30 beers on a rainy day?? visionary yes. god no. Bring on the trad elitism dude...
9:47:21 AM
Mark Moorhead was climbing rock routes within a few grades of the upper limit of the time (late 70s early 80s) & he went missing/died on an 8000m mountain. I'm yet to hear of any other Australians doing the same, although some have come close - grade 24/25 & 8000m mountains.

11:47:57 AM
Andrew Lindblade and Athol Whimp?

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There are 335 messages in this topic.


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