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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 9 of 17. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 260 | 261 to 280 | 281 to 300 | 301 to 320 | 321 to 335
Author
THE AUSTRALIAN RETRO/RE-BOLTING OPEN FORUM

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/04/2004
4:11:08 PM
On 13/04/2004 kent wrote:
>On 13/04/2004 A5iswhereitsat wrote:
>>Personally I accept Sport Climbing (and Bouldering) as forms of Climbing.
>oh, how refreshingly politically correct...
Its called respect, ... and I trust its mutual:)
(The litigeous, politically correct bunch can find another forum to w@nk on).

Damietta
13/04/2004
5:15:22 PM
On 13/04/2004 Phil S wrote:
>We don't need to extend our grading system!
> We've got words: route descriptions and heresay.
> We've got eyes: we can stand beneith a route and recognise that there
>might not be any gear between there and there, or that there is gear but
>there's also a blank section a long way above it.
> We've got emotions: if the thought of being up there is horrific, perhaps
>another day would be better.
>
>The old cliche is worth remembering: We don't conquor rock climbs - we
>simply meet their demands, or not. It is not our right to feel safe on
>a climb, or to have the experience that we feel was somehow due to us.
>When we leave the ground we leave our confort zone, that's the whole point.
>It's supposed to be confronting. The uncertainty is the best part.
>
>The point I'm not really making is that Australian climbing is perfect
>just the way it is. It will continue to evolve with us. But we must protect
>it from lowest common denominator

Following that line of argument - you would prefer to do away with the grading system all together. The Oz grading system is obviously flawed, and there are better alternatives, nothing any of you have presented above negates my argument. The quality of and information provided by grading system can only add to the experience, not detract.

The point is, if you are going to vehermently oppose retro-bolting of 70's deathroutes, perhaps modify the grading system so that these routes receive the objective respect (fear) they deserve, so that Phil's "lowest common denominators" stay off them.

And BTW, the common denominator = a simple number ie simple numerical grading system?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/04/2004
5:49:42 PM
On 13/04/2004 Damien wrote:
>The point is, if you are going to vehermently oppose retro-bolting of
>70's deathroutes, perhaps modify the grading system so that these routes
>receive the objective respect (fear) they deserve, so that Phil's "lowest
>common denominators" stay off them.
If you need that then I can live with it. You really need to convince the unsung heroes of the game, ... the guidebook writers, or become one yourself to achieve this. I suspect their obvious rejoinder would be to "read the climb description".

>And BTW, the common denominator = a simple number ie simple numerical
>grading system?
And thus we return to the Ewbank System, ... simple numeric.

>The quality of and information provided by grading system can only add to the experience, not detract.
Some of us don't always need or want it though...

In support of your (your) premise is the following anecdote;
I have in my possession a number of Warrumbungles climbing guides. I note with interest that the newer the guide the 'briefer' the description of the climbs contained therein become.
Some are rendered meaningless, eg pitch 7, 20m up; pitch 8, step left 32 m up; pitches 9 & 10 56m up easily to the top. This is hardly 'quality information' when the original guides were much more verbose in describing the same climbs (or sections thereof).
I think it was an attempt to 'keep the adventure'. They would have been better off simply putting in a line diagram for where the line goes on cliff diagrams!
PS All the long Bungles routes are an adventure anyway in my opinion.
BA
13/04/2004
6:02:43 PM
I've posted all of Ewbank's considerations when he was devising his grading system on this site before, but ... the main point that is nearly always overlooked is the following:

Grading takes the following into consideration. Technical difficulty, exposure, length, quality of rock, protection and other smaller factors. As these are more or less all related to each other, I have rejected the idea of 3 or 4 grades, i.e. one for exposure, one for technical difficulty, one for protection etc. Instead the climb is given its one general grading, and if any of the other factors is outstanding, this is stated verbally in the short introduction to that climb.

Taken from the intro to his 1967 guide.

hex-TROLL
13/04/2004
7:50:32 PM
Obviously 'the times they are-a changin' ; obviously one grade is in-adequate ; obviously '...the idea of 3 or 4 grades...' is ridiculous ; obviously ,to some , 2 grades is ' the workable middle ground ' ; obviously , to some, ' John isn't Jesus ; obviously OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Estey
13/04/2004
9:14:19 PM
On 13/04/2004 Damien wrote:

>You can't chop and change and take this and that, take the
>best of the current technologies/ethics and wrap yourself in the cloak
>of traditional righteousness. It's too late for that, the crag is already
>covered in chalk and bolts.

Damien

Slow down and check your tie-in dude. Why can't different styles of climbing and the ethics and philosophies behind them coexist? I think that in Oz we have a good mixture of trad, sport, trad-sport etc. I enjoy all of these styles. I'm not sure how this makes me a hypocrite. In many places you can find all of these styles at the same crag. The only thing that threatens this coexistence is inappropriate retrobolting.

So far the only contribution you have made towards the "retrobolt debate" is that repeat ascentionists have the right to add bolts to a route if they feel it is unsafe. Unfortunately its not that black and white. Who decides whether a climb is a deathroute? When is a climb merely bold or do bold routes need bolts added too? Do you think routes such as Brolga and Missing Link need bolts? Most climbers believe these routes should remain in their naturally protected state (as previously discussed in other threads on this forum). However if these routes were located at Thompson's Point they would be fully ring bolted and and most climbers wouldn't give a flying fornification. Your kidding yourself if you believe that the history and ethics of a particular area don't have some influence on whether a climb should be retrobolted.

By the way I've never argued that retrobolting should never take place. In particular if somebody does a poor job putting up a sports route I'm all for a reshuffle and a few extra rings. But adding bolts to existing routes in more traditional areas requires consultation and consensus among long term locals (including the first ascentionist if possible). If I'm not mistaken this is consistent with both Safer Cliffs Victoria and the NSW Rebolting Fund's philosophy on rebolting.

And Damien you really remind me of someone ... you don't have a little brother called Seth who climbs at Queen's Park do you?


kieranl
13/04/2004
9:54:58 PM
Have you guys just got back to work from Easter and have no real work to do? Rarely have I seen so much ineffectual garbage produced on one day.
Are climbing grading systems flawed? Do climbers have egos? Does the Pope fantasise about the girl with big tits when he was at school in Poland?



Donut King
14/04/2004
12:52:51 PM
On 13/04/2004 kieranl wrote:
>".... Does the Pope
>fantasise about the girl with big tits when he was at school in Poland?


lol....now that the best thing i have read in this entire thread!!!!!!

neats
14/04/2004
12:55:53 PM
haha, thats funny!!!!

hex-TROLL
14/04/2004
1:04:21 PM
Kieranl , 10/07/03 : ' I really didn't mean it ! You're stuck with me 30 years later , you poor bastards ! '

08/02/04 : ' That's my last response to Hex !'

14/02/04 : ' What I add to this topic is my integrity...I read Hex's comments because I care and I respond to them because I care ' [snigger !]

13/04/04 :' ...you guys...' ( wake up you fools ! the cauldron is 'spiked' ! )

Grading systems ? ; egos ? ; the girl with big tits ?

' Might as well face it , you're addicted to [HEX] ! '

Luvin' the view of the ' ineffectual garbage ' , spewin' out the end of the glacier ! ,HEX.


IdratherbeclimbingM9
14/04/2004
1:28:05 PM
On 14/04/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:
> ' Might as well face it , you're addicted to [HEX] ! '
You are right (again) Hex-Troll (legend in ones own cauldron).
A forum search reveals this thread has had the most views and also the most replies of any that Chockstone has had, ... (even more than Chockstone Gathering etc)

Time I had a reality check, ... and go climb a cliff (solo) again.

Damietta
14/04/2004
1:38:34 PM
For F&*&*(Ks F87ing Sake read my posts fully before you reply to them, dammit, i't like dealing with children having to keep on explaining what i mean.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
14/04/2004
1:43:27 PM
?

hex-TROLL
14/04/2004
2:00:10 PM
Good idea A5--- there can't be too much left of the gazelle ' carcass ' that BA threw into his ? cauldron---not to mention the shot-gun blasts that Kent let rip with , so poetically !

Don't go solo , dude --- take Damo along --- he has much to explain to your exhausted inner-child...

OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
kieranl
14/04/2004
10:37:30 PM
Hex, I didn't say I was consistent.
James
15/04/2004
9:33:14 AM
the cauldren certainly is bubbling..... the british E grading system certainly has its positives & I reckon its really good. but I can't help but think that Hexie might have a wee bit of trouble trying to convince the 'general' population to abandon the Ewbank system althogether. If the poor unfortunate sport climbers can't get their heads around twin ropes & natural pro, how will they ever make sense of a grading system with more that 2 digits??!!

>Slow down and check your tie-in dude. Why can't different styles of climbing and the >ethics and philosophies behind them coexist? I think that in Oz we have a good >mixture of trad, sport, trad-sport etc. I enjoy all of these styles. I'm not sure how this >makes me a hypocrite. In many places you can find all of these styles at the same >crag. The only thing that threatens this coexistence is inappropriate retrobolting.
agreed.

>My plea is; Don't let adventure climbing die due to overbolting.
my voice is added to this plea.
also agreed. Bolting can be ok, but overbolting is bad (guess this is the sticky point though...). I can think of lots of climbs with bolts that are adverturous (eg: Phaedra.....do you know this story Hex??).

PS: Yodel is 22, only 1 bolt was added (if I remember correctly). I also would suggest that lots of climbers would consider the top of the route a tad run-out even with the bolt.


hex-TROLL
15/04/2004
12:51:34 PM
Jim---not ' abandon ' --- simply ' bolt-on ' the very simple E-grade---the 'western' brain needs some sort of simple ' beta-fix ' to accommodate&assimilate all 'those' exciting/spooky concepts associated with a particular climb.

It will also add to the McDonalds generation , ' wow!!! ' factor : " You guys ! You guys !! --- not only did I send my first grade 23 , but it was E4 too !!! "

PHAEDRA ? : according to our friend ' orangehang-over ' (did I Neily get that right ? ) ,it is a '..fantastic 4 pitch 22 which climbs some very blank faces...Grade is 22M1 as it includes aiding up a bolt ladder thru a steep section...'

' Mythmaker ' , 1998 : ' In the past Xena had welcomed challenges and whipped everyone but an older warrior named Phaedra who had nearly killed Xena with the double-headed ax [dildo ?] when Xena had been distracted by [a very saphic?] Gabrielle. More recently Xena had knocked Phaedra out as the Amazon had sought to track Xena during her self-destructive flight to the cliffs...'

Continue the '...story...' , Jim...

Luv HEX.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
15/04/2004
1:09:42 PM
On many occasions hex-TROLL wrote:
>OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Tibetan spiritual MANTRAS usually involve, more than the simple OM.
Have you heard Om Ha Hung, or Om Sat Guru, or Om Benza?

Checkin out the TOP in ya absence, presumably while you were tending the cauldron fire H-T ...
(Did not notice any bolts there either, 'thank-godness')

>You guys ! You guys !! --- not only did I send my first grade 23 , but it was E4 too !!! "
Better to be able to say --- "not only did I send my first grade 23 , but I soloed it too!!! "
... In which case the grade would be sublime, (as you are climbing for yourself), ... the 'wow factor' is only in others minds ...

My 'inner child' has had a rest/reset ... (it survived without Damo)

James
15/04/2004
1:20:37 PM
hex has been caught short of essential cauldren ingredients & has taken a monumental slide from the summit!! can Hexie self-arrest before he plunges over the abyss into the crevasse of doom?? (of course assisted by the knife-in-chalk bag!)

I don't know who did the FA, but perhaps the story is something like Pheadra ascending one of the most stunning, soaring & direct lines on the impressive East Face of Mt Maroon (this is south-east Qld for the uninformed pagens). There was but one flaw to the (almost) perfect story, a 5m overhanging section that could only be overcome by 6 bolts & a hook (or nut pick!) move. All attempts to free the aid were only possible by a circutous detour off route. The sting in the tail is the final 20-odd-metres of slick grade 22 slab climbing on top of the world & perched on the abyss (or so it would seem). Phaedra=bolts+ADVENTURE (big capitals).

done any more research yet Hex?? tell me about part 2.

'bolting on' E grades gets my vote. Sounds like you need to write a new guide for somewhere & take the initiative.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
15/04/2004
1:32:36 PM
>continue the story ...

Some velvet morning when Im straight,
Im gonna open up your gate,
and maybe tell you bout Phaedra,
and how she gave me life ,
and how she made it end,
Some velvet morning when Im straaaiight.

Flowers growing on a hill,
dragonflies and daffodils,
learn from us very much,
look at us but do not touch,
Phaedra is my name .

(Nancy Sinatra and Lee Hazelwood - circa approx 1966).

'simese twins part 2.' ?

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There are 335 messages in this topic.

 

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