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N008ie mistakes???

Duncan

26-Oct-2008
3:18:43 PM

On 24/10/2008 MrsM10iswhereitsat. wrote:
>It is the colour of the ceiling in the Royal North Shore head injuy unit.
>I am told it gets a bit boring after a while of lying on your back and watching the
>shadows pass over it

Boredom is easier to deal with than being woken up every four hours to check that you're not dead.

ropedonkey

26-Oct-2008
5:39:32 PM

Ok.. I am going to wade into the helmet debate, wearing of a helmet is a personal choice if i climb at anywhere new or are throwing myself at climb way above my grade i always put mine on, if my partner forgets theirs in a loose area i always make them wear mine whilst belaying. Of the numerous falls i have had three have been big upside downers and really sometimes you just cant avoid them, don't ever think it wont happen to you as every fall brings one closer to you... to say Nowra is completely safe, is also a hoax as everyone starts from the top and walks down the gullies so there is an opportunity to dislodge a rock, also the biggest hold i have ever broken was on arse master at Thompson Pt and funny enough it landed on my helmet next to my backpack, so i guess it was lucky i didn't have it on that day, i would wear my helmet for 80% of the time but its a cheap option to being fed thru a straw for the rest of your life... maybe just maybe if the Zacs and Sharma's etc were pictured wearing helmets, they would be on more noggings... anyway off my soapbox now hope everyone had a good weekend and Cruze when are you coming up this way? there is a whole new crag up here bigger than all of "you know where"

DrDan

26-Oct-2008
8:58:00 PM

On 26/10/2008 kady wrote:
>One thing that you should know about wire gates is that when used in conjunction
>with carrots/bolt plates they can rotate and pull the bolt plate off the
>carrot. Also be wary of carrots with smaller heads. I will never forget
>climbing past a bolt when my foot caught on my draw and lifted the draw
>(solid gate) and bolt plate right off a small headed carrot. p.s a carrot
>is like a regular bolt that has been bashed into a pre-drilled hole. (
>i had no idea what a carrot was when i started climbing)

Thanks Kady :) Yup, sure enough, being a newbie, I only learnt about bolts and carrots in the last few days through a book (The Climbing Handbook by Steven Long).
I'm still a little bit somewhat unsure with respect to quickdraw placement - I was in a climbing gear store yesterday, and got some advice from a fellow shopper who was an exprienced climber - he told me that one thing I should definitely get was
1) a daisy chain
2) fu(ket loads of biners (screw and clips)
3) similar abundance of quickdraws
Then he said to me "Make sure you always have the biners facing opposite directions on a quickdraw" and he explained why, but being less technical it escaped me (sorry...)
I think he said it was to stop the top (anchoring) biner from accidentally being dragged and unclipped or removing the bolt...(?)

Also, I've decided to buy Mountaineering: Freedom of the hills (7ed) tomorrow - do you guys and girls recommend any other books? or alternatives?

hotgemini

26-Oct-2008
10:12:46 PM

So was the bloke a wanker or deliberately leading you astray?

1) Daisy chains are an aid climbing tool, adopted by many as an adjustable anchor for sport climbing but they're an expensive and potentially flawed way to directly attach yourself to an anchor. But I guess now that you've got one, we might as well teach you how to use it, go to black diamonds website and watch/rewatch their daisy death video until you understand the mechanism, then avoid it by always using the two-biner method.

2) You need enough to have enough, given that you're a bumbling noob, what you probably should have been aiming it would be to have enough to be independant gearwise as a seconder for a while, then expand your gear as your needs, desires, competency and understanding dictate.

3) Depending on your ability to find some mentoring climbers, you hopefully won't *need* any yet, that said, a couple of extendable draws are handy versatile things to have.

As for the q/ds facing opposite ways, the guy is a tosser, next time you see him kick him the teeth on behalf of all those who resent the perpetuation of misinformation.

There's absolutely minimal significant data out there regarding sys- or trans- orientation of quickdraws, it will simply boil down to a personal preference thing. There's some argument with regards to the behavior/orientation of the gates as rope drag pulls the quickdraw one way or another.

Here's what the very excellent former BD testing guy had to say

[quote]I have to dissagree with the recommendations of having the gates face the same way or the opposite way, every situation is different and may require different techniques. I recommend setting up draws with a selection of different length of runners with the biners oriented in the same direction and the opposite direction. I only recommend fixing the bottom biner. Here are my reasons in order of importance (based on likelyhood of failure in my opinion):

Note, I think through these issues EVERY TIME I clip a piece of pro on every route. Learn to do this quickly. Assess every piece of pro every time. I do not believe that there is one technique that works in every situation.

1) Bottom biner must not be loaded over an edge or buldge. Use different length of draw if needed. If this is not possible then use a locking biner. Look for rotational effects. The buldge or edge may not be located directly below the bolt but could be off to the side. Make sure you think about how the draw will move when you fall from different places on the route above you. Often times a route will force you to climb both to the right and to the left of the piece below you. Remember this when clipping your pro. Try to assess where you might be most likely to fall from and set up your pro accordingly.

2) Top biner must not be loaded over an edge or buldge. On bolted sport routes this does occur fairly often. Use a locking biner for these situations, two biners, add a backup tie off, or better yet if you think you might fall on this bolt-BAIL. Then slap the first ascentionist repeatedly until they fix their f---up. Often times you can simply rotate the biner with the gate opening downwards to reduce the likelyhood of the buldge opening the gate. In general I try to make sure that the gate faces away from the bolt head. It can interfere with the biner gate in some rare situations. Top biners are much less likely to unclip if they are not fixed to the quickdraw, therefore I do not fix the top biner to the draw.

3) Bottom biner must not be back clipped. Unclip and reclip the rope until it is clipped correctly.

4) Bottom biner gate must face away from the direction you are climbing towards.

5) Orientation of either biner is independent of where you are clipping from. They are dependent on where you are going and the variables above. Be able to clip with either hand with the biners facing either direction. Setting up your draws and clipping them in one direction just because you have poor technique is a bad excuse that could have harsh consequences given the right circumstances. Learn the pinch clip and the index clip and the palm clip and and and. Be proficient at any clip! There are times when this is not feasible. When climbing at your limit you may need to force a certain type of direction to make the clip easier. Be aware that this may not be the best situation when falling from above.

6) Carry 1 or two draws with locking biners on both ends for those situations where you can't avoid biner interaction with buldges or edges or when faced with a hard crux or runout where gear failure would be disastrous.

These are my personal opinions from my own experiences in climbing not from testing that I have done.

Chris Harmston (chrish@bdel.com). Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer BS, ME. Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. 2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552[/quote]

DrDan

26-Oct-2008
10:43:09 PM

Thanks for that hotgemini!
(hehe, bumbling noob...)

No, the dude in the store was an older fella, but he was genuinely trying to help, and I appreciated his time in explaining bits of info here and there.

I figured that different situations called for different placement position/length/technique and would vary in almost every scenario. And especially with respect to points 3 and 4 of Chris's communication - those are probably THE most importnat points to have ingrained in to every little noob...

I haven't gotten a daisy chain yet - I thought I'd wait to see and hear from more experienced climbers soon, and then get an idea of what gear to get, as I climb more and more.


Sabu

26-Oct-2008
10:53:37 PM

On 26/10/2008 DrDan wrote:
>I haven't gotten a daisy chain yet -
Save your money!

Atomic_Tomatoes

26-Oct-2008
11:32:41 PM

On 26/10/2008 DrDan wrote:
>Also, I've decided to buy Mountaineering: Freedom of the hills (7ed) tomorrow
>- do you guys and girls recommend any other books? or alternatives?

I haven't read Freedom of the hills but I can recommend Climbing Anchors 2nd Edition (2006) by John Long.

fish boy

26-Oct-2008
11:51:07 PM

On 26/10/2008 Atomic_Tomatoes wrote:
>On 26/10/2008 DrDan wrote:
>>Also, I've decided to buy Mountaineering: Freedom of the hills (7ed)
>tomorrow
>>- do you guys and girls recommend any other books? or alternatives?
>
>I haven't read Freedom of the hills but I can recommend Climbing Anchors
>2nd Edition (2006) by John Long.
>

Really? Why on earth do people need to see what should be simple and easy repeated over and over again, ad nauseum? 95% of my belays are exactly the same, as I'd imagine most other people's....and learning how to place gear from a book like that with dodgy photos would make things confusing.

I suggest Basic Rockcraft, Royal Robbins.

DrDan

27-Oct-2008
1:31:03 AM

On 26/10/2008 fish boy wrote:
>....and learning how to place gear from a book like that with dodgy photos would make things confusing.
>
>I suggest Basic Rockcraft, Royal Robbins.

...so you don't recommend 7ed Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills, or the other one (climbing anchors)?


wallwombat

27-Oct-2008
7:02:26 AM

Freedom of the Hills is good. So is Climbing Anchors but it's a bit complex to start with. Maybe get it later so as not to over-complicate things.


pmonks

27-Oct-2008
8:57:17 AM

I hate to throw a spanner in this "which book should I buy?" discussion, but while books are somewhat useful for understanding some of the basic theory, what you really need are the practical skills that (in my opinion) can only be learnt "on the job".

But how do you learn on the job if you don't yet know how to do the job safely? The answer is the old-fashioned apprenticeship idea, which (by no coincidence) is how people originally used to learn to climb before the invention of climbing gyms. You'll learn more, faster and more safely by climbing with someone who knows their shit than you will by studying a whole library's worth of textbooks (no matter how good those textbooks are).

Unfortunately it's harder these days to find experienced climbers willing to show a newbie the ropes (or at least that's how it seems to me - the people who know their stuff seem to be too busy grid bolting the latest 12m pile of choss they've discovered). The various clubs are probably the best place to look for this kind of thing - worst case they're a great way to meet a lot of climbers, some of whom might be willing to take you on as an apprentice.

Atomic_Tomatoes

27-Oct-2008
9:02:09 AM

On 26/10/2008 fish boy wrote:
>On 26/10/2008 Atomic_Tomatoes wrote:
>>On 26/10/2008 DrDan wrote:
>>>Also, I've decided to buy Mountaineering: Freedom of the hills (7ed)
>>tomorrow
>>>- do you guys and girls recommend any other books? or alternatives?
>>
>>I haven't read Freedom of the hills but I can recommend Climbing Anchors
>>2nd Edition (2006) by John Long.
>>
>
>Really? Why on earth do people need to see what should be simple and easy
>repeated over and over again, ad nauseum? 95% of my belays are exactly
>the same, as I'd imagine most other people's....and learning how to place
>gear from a book like that with dodgy photos would make things confusing.
>
>I suggest Basic Rockcraft, Royal Robbins.

I haven't read Basic Rockcraft so I can't compare but I have read Rock Climbing getting started by Glenn Tempest which I also found useful but I wanted a book which dealt a lot more with anchors.

Personally I didn't find it confusing at all. I thought the pictures illustrated the text well. Could you explain to me the dodgy photos so I can better my knowledge (or did you mean dodgy as in quality). Obviously people (my included) are only really going to learn to place trad gear by actually doing it and see what placement/s really work. I don't think it hurts to extend your knowledge and see what works for you. If you end up making 95% of your belays the same then that's great but it's the 5% I'm also interested in knowing how to do well.
My climbing partner is about 15-20kg heavier than me so I also wanted more information on multidirectional belays.

If DrDan hasn't climbed before outdoors and plans to get all the gear and go out and set up some topropes or whatever then wouldn't a book (whichever book) showing how set up good and varied anchors be helpful?

I have read a few threads on chocky which debates anchors/knots/angles - This one being the latest.
http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=1&MessageID=63411&Replies=33&PagePos=0&Sort=#newpost
So I believe there are a lot of people of all experiences (and I'm no expert) that have questions and varying opinions about anchors/angles and types of knots.

DrDan

27-Oct-2008
11:32:46 AM

Thanks guys,

Yup, I totally agree with you pmonks - you can only learn so much from books, and the practical is so differnt from the theory. But, at the moment, I'm just trying to get the theory as a solid foundation for my practical to come.
I think when it comes to your safety/life, relying only on information in the books is rather dangerous. I'm definitely planning on seeing and learning from more experinced climbers before I start doing things helter skelter.

It's a shame that more experienced climbers willing to show the ropes (NPI) are rare these days - when I get to a competent stage with a very sound level of knowledge and experience, I'll definitely pass it on to newer climbers (...I probably won't get to this stage for another 10 years though....)

Thanks for that Atomic Tomatoe - I agree, varying opinions and experiences for varying levels of climbers - each to their own ;) I'll have a look at that book by Glenn Tempest, too.

Now, off to the book store for me :)


mattjr

27-Oct-2008
1:33:33 PM

In my limited experience books are great, get your hands on as many decent ones as possible to give you a rounded perspective. Any one source of knowledge, be it the author of a book or an experienced climber can lead you to pick up on bad/questionable habits as well as good ones.


MrsM10iswhereitsat.

27-Oct-2008
3:22:33 PM

Mr hero wrote;
>Beige, Mrs M10, is also a colour that serves as a metaphor for the lives of those that live them scared of ending up in a cranial care unit.

And here I was thinking that that was the colour puce dearie!

>And surely, not having a helmet during a serious accident means you have less chance of spending time stairing at the ceiling.

In case Ms surely does not reply; I would suggest that when a serious accident happens then you are right, your number would be up regardless. There have however, been a number of in-between cases. I wonder what those survivors think?

Mr Duncan wrote;
>Boredom is easier to deal with than being woken up every four hours to check that you're not dead.

I wake up daily just to check on that very thing dearie!; though I dare say that if one is lying in that state, then it could be a welcome relief from the metaphor colour constantly looking back from overhead.

DrDan

28-Oct-2008
10:21:25 PM

Just got back from my first ever climb outdoors today.... and I AM AN ADDICT.
I LOVED IT!!!
Holy crap, why do people climb only indoors????

Thank you and props to Sonic - top dude, great, easy instructions and a great learn-by-safety/feel approach to teaching. Sonic, you made my outdoor climbing experience a fan-bloody-tastic one. Thanks mate!!

Snowyhas some great climbs - we went to Medlow Baths.
It was my tenth climb ever (wall or pitch climbing), and boy what a way to herald my first ever outdoor climbing experience!! - goddame I love that climb called Old Salt. Gonna have dreams about that one, for sure!

I can't believe so many people just climb indoors....geez.

Lessons learnt:
1. Don't concentrate or focus on the negative (eg arm pump) when stuck at a crux. Think positive and act to chieve that positive goal - too many times I would be fixated on arm pump or not being able to make it, etc, thereby taking much longer to ascend when I could have just gotten on with it...*me = noob*
2. REALLY listen to your belayer, who is offering great guidance from below
3. Correct technique for placing quickdraws/bolt plates/rope through biners.
4. Don't grip so hard on every hold just because you're now outdoors and the thought of falling is evermore so present in the back of mind.
5. On your very first outdoor climb, don't look down once you've reached the top (haha)


IdratherbeclimbingM9

29-Oct-2008
8:00:42 AM

It is good to hear that you enjoyed the experience.

Ahh to be young again, with so much in front of you ...
... can start growing a beard and looking forward to having your 1st epic!
Heh, heh, heh.

Seriously, it is good to have positive vibes/feedback, and we look forward to reading your trip reports in the future.


Capt_mulch

29-Oct-2008
8:50:10 AM

>Holy crap, why do people climb only indoors????
>
One of the great mysteries of life...

>Lessons learnt:
>1. Don't concentrate or focus on the negative (eg arm pump) when stuck
>at a crux. Think positive and act to chieve that positive goal - too many
>times I would be fixated on arm pump or not being able to make it, etc,
>thereby taking much longer to ascend when I could have just gotten on with
>it...*me = noob*
>2. REALLY listen to your belayer, who is offering great guidance from
>below
>3. Correct technique for placing quickdraws/bolt plates/rope through biners.
>4. Don't grip so hard on every hold just because you're now outdoors and
>the thought of falling is evermore so present in the back of mind.
>5. On your very first outdoor climb, don't look down once you've reached
>the top (haha)

Not wanting to open any old wounds :-) :

6. Wear a helmet??


Sonic

29-Oct-2008
10:46:29 AM

Ok I admit - I didn't take my helmet. I needed room in my pack for lunch! Can't teach on an empty stomach, see?

29-Oct-2008
11:47:52 AM

On 26/10/2008 Olbert wrote:
>See...wearing a helmet while sport climbing climbing is like wearing a
>helmet while driving. If you have a crash you will almost certainly be
>better off...but when was the last time you saw someone driving a car wearing
>a helmet.

I can remember a group of climbers returning from the Gorge at Buffalo in a Mini (a proper one, not one of those huge German remakes) wearing their helmets. One of the people on board said "you could never roll a Mini with 4 people on board" when it hit a bit of gravel on the road, slid sideways off the road and one of the wheels hit a rock and ... yes ... it rolled onto its side. The Mini was still drivable, the sod of earth stuck in the windscreen did attract some attention on the way back to Melbourne.

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