Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author

Keep outa my crack - Trad routes as projects?


wallwombat

3-Feb-2008
8:41:16 PM

The Olive Caves thread got me wondering about people claiming trad routes as projects and asking people to keep of them. I realise that the route talked about in the thread has 2 bolts in it and therefore isn't a pure trad route but what if it didn't have those 2 bolts?

Do people think it's acceptable to ask other climbers to keep off naturally protected routes because it is someones "project"?


cruze

3-Feb-2008
8:55:22 PM

I posed this question of Macciza not so long ago.

I think it's bogus.

Just don't tell anyone about your new cliff, or if the route is on an existing cliff who the hell are you kidding?

Putting a twist on it though, what if you fix a wire/tube chock?


evanbb

3-Feb-2008
9:11:15 PM

I think if you 'put in' to the route; ie clean it, fix gear, maybe bolt an anchor or something else to show you've done some work on it, then claiming it is all good. Otherwise, it's open season.

There is some argument though for right of ownership, even if nothing has actually been done to the climb. Say I mentioned to a mate that I'd found this amazing corner system deep in the Capertee, across from Mt Keith. If he then went out in pursuit of it and found it, I think I'd have some right to be pissed off. Unless it was a total choss fest sandbag, in which case you get what you deserve.


wallwombat

3-Feb-2008
9:20:43 PM

It's murky ground.

There is a huge corner on the other side of the valley from "the crag that doesn't exist" and widewetandslippery and I have been planning to climb it for some time. No one else has shown much interest, besides saying "wow". If someone else was to beat us to the first ascent I don't think we would have any right to complain even if we had already got most of the way up the thing.

Now if we fixed a #4 tube chock at the start, with a red tag on it, that would be a different matter!


nmonteith

3-Feb-2008
9:30:26 PM

I think if you have made the effort of actually attempting the route then you've probably got some dibs. If you have done some brushing, anchor placment or cleaning of loose rock then its a closed project - just like a sport route. Be pro-active is all you need to do. Saying 'im comign back to do it' after seeing it from the ground is hardly putting the effort in. I know with the Olive Cave crack project, Adam racked up and attempted it ground up on the first day he went to the cliff. He spent hours on it - sweating, cursing and getting scared. He put the initial effort in - he deserves to have the route to himself.


Macciza

3-Feb-2008
9:59:51 PM

>Do people think it's acceptable to ask other climbers to keep off naturally protected routes because it
is someones "project"?

Absolutely - if that is your wish with the line - it is not that different to if you had put bolts in, except
that obviously if you are trying the route on gear than no-one can just come along and bolt it.
Thats what I'd do with that big corner or anything else at TCTDE that looked like it would go on gear.
Jump on the thing and put some effort into checking. cleaning and/or climbing it and it's a project.
Advertise the fact and warn people with lower standards of ethics not to bolt it or they will be chopped.

And in the end I'm not a great fan of long-term 'closed' projects and generally have a fairly 'open'
approach to it all except for a few that hold certain signifcance to me. But I do expect people to
respect the ascent style that has been established and not cheat anymore than I have already.

And finally to quote The Mountain Code 2002
Article 10, 6. If a project is being attempted by a team without the use of bolts and it hasn’t been
explicitly abandoned, candidates for the route with a lower standard of ethics must uphold a three year
moratorium from the first attempt of their predecessor.


wallwombat

3-Feb-2008
10:33:36 PM

As much as I'd like to agree with Neil and Macciza, I'm afraid I'm with Cruze - I think it's bogus.

I'm certainly not referring to Adam's project, here. He placed some bolts and prepared the route and has a right to have it as a project. That's fine.

On 3/02/2008 nmonteith wrote:
> If you have done some brushing, anchor placment
>or cleaning of loose rock then its a closed project - just like a sport
>route.

I just don't agree with this. A purely naturally protected unclimbed line should be up for grabs. I think these routes should be climbed ground up and I don't believe that because someone has rapped a line to clean it and suss it out, they have the line as theirs alone. If you want to adopt that attitude, buy a power drill and a whole lot of bolts and you can have as many projects as you want. I think adopting a sport climbing mentality to trad climbs, diminishes those climbs and simply makes those climbs, "sport climbs on gear".

I remember reading in an old issue of Climbing or Rock and Ice about the first ascent of Super Crack in the Shawangunks. There were heaps of climbers vying for the first ascent and the competition involved was intense but it was also friendly and sporting. The same can be said of the classic lines in Yosemite. Kauk and Bachar and crew were constantly competing for unclimbed lines. When Bridwell freed the Stoveleg Cracks on The Nose of El CAp, he didn't say to everyone else "back off fellas, this line is mine"

I can accept that when someone bolts a line and puts that time, money and effort in, they should be given a decent amount of time to complete the route. But cracks and corners and other potential naturally protected lines are different. I certainly do not think that just because someone is first to "have a go" at a line, or abseiled in and cleaned it, they should have exclusive rights to that climb.


Chuck Norris

3-Feb-2008
10:48:27 PM

I don't see why putting a few bolts in - a priori - makes a project more "hands off" than something without
bolts. Each situation to its own but out of respect you should keep off any project, bolts or no bolts, for
an amount of time that respects the efforts of the person trying it...but at the end of the day if you think
they are taking the piss then just f---ing climb it if you can. Whether there are bolts in it or not who gives
a shit.

Also spare me the sob stories about "time and money when you bolt something" & "doing something for
the sport" blah blah blah.


anthonyk

3-Feb-2008
10:51:17 PM

what difference does it make, is it just about being able to stick your name on it and give it a title? if climbing is about a personal challenge and personal enjoyment it wouldn't matter if someone else has also tried it. seems to me that naming & claiming is entirely driven by social rewards not personal ones.


Macciza

3-Feb-2008
11:02:58 PM

On 3/02/2008 wallwombat wrote:
>As much as I'd like to agree with Neil and Macciza, I'm afraid I'm with
>Cruze - I think it's bogus.

I don't think our views are that different - As I said, in general I am all for open projects and that
friendly competition to push it all along. If I've put a lot of effort into the line (cleaning, or climbing) I
might like to get a fair shot at it to start with sometimes depending on circumstances. It's the opposite
side to it all.
Sometimes it's just a matter of respect - allowing someone to finish the job they started.
The better climbers that I climb with allow me a fair shot at the easier stuff and I put them on the stuff
that too hard for me, and we mix it up more in the middle.
So yeah basically if I went out to a cliff and saw a trad-line or line to be I'd give it a shot unless there
was some really recent evidence that someone had it as a closed project - old tat doesn't count.
My main thing is that if we went an started trying that big corner that it becomes a 'trad-project' and it
would need to be abandoned as such before the vultures could bolt it. It applies at sport crags too. If I
discover a new line that I am actively attempting on gear - then they can't 'steel it' . . .


nmonteith

3-Feb-2008
11:05:45 PM

On 3/02/2008 wallwombat wrote:

>I remember reading in an old issue of Climbing or Rock and Ice about the
>first ascent of Super Crack in the Shawangunks. There were heaps of climbers
>vying for the first ascent and the competition involved was intense but
>it was also friendly and sporting. The same can be said of the classic
>lines in Yosemite. Kauk and Bachar and crew were constantly competing for
>unclimbed lines. When Bridwell freed the Stoveleg Cracks on The Nose of
>El CAp, he didn't say to everyone else "back off fellas, this line is mine"

The BIG difference between these examples and new trad routes of today is that these older examples were FREE attempts of previously aided routes. They had already been climbed, cleaned and named. The first ascent competition was just to be the first to remove all the aid.


wallwombat

3-Feb-2008
11:11:08 PM

Why am I always sorry when I post a topic on this F#cking forum?

OK, the main reason I stay off tagged sport climbs is they are normally too bloody hard for me to climb. The other reason is that I don't want to get bashed and have my car vandalised by some irate sport climber with ownership issues.

But if I happen across a nice looking crack or corner that I want to try to climb, I will try to climb it. I will start at the bottom and try to climb to the top. Even if it has a big sign at the base, saying "This crack belongs Wolfgang Fantini. Keep Off!" And if it has any fixed pieces of pro, I will claim them as booty.

I am a bad man.

And keep off that big corner across from " the crag that doesn't exist". It's all mine!

devlin66

3-Feb-2008
11:17:38 PM

A lot of the climbing community are driven by the claim and name game. I couldn't say it doesn't affect me either if I was honest. I like the idea of finding a quality crag or leaving behind a beautiful route that has my name attached even though at the end of the day it doesn't matter shit. Few people really care who the first ascent was done by and I am guilty of that as well for most routes I have climbed.
I can't say what my stance on the trad project is though. I have too many conflicting ideas in my head about it. The sport climber in me says to fix a wire of something with a red tag/note on the bottom explaining the situation or ........ just don't worry about it. If someone else does it before you does that make your ascent less special in your eyes?


nmonteith

3-Feb-2008
11:33:22 PM

I reckon people who feel its ok to steal other routes have never spent a day wire-brushing bird shit and lichen off a new route for hours on end. Fair enough if you don't know a route is a project then ignorance can be an excuse, but if you know someone has put some effort into making the line clean then at least give them the time to climb it themselves. There is no shortage of dirt-clogged cracks for you to clean for yourself!


wallwombat

3-Feb-2008
11:33:51 PM

On 3/02/2008 nmonteith wrote:
>The BIG difference between these examples and new trad routes of today
>is that these older examples were FREE attempts of previously aided routes.
>They had already been climbed, cleaned and named. The first ascent competition
>was just to be the first to remove all the aid.

That's the smallest BIG difference I have ever heard.

If that's the case , I think I'll unpack my etriers and head on down to the Grampians. I'll be able to climb, clean and name any unclimbed line I can find and everyones efforts to free my routes won't be worth a pinch of shit, according to your reasoning. They're just whittling away my aid.

And anyway, Baxter probably aided that crack at Olive Caves before you were born. Just didn't bother naming it because he thought it was a choss heap.


Macciza

3-Feb-2008
11:50:25 PM

Hey WW,
Don't stress - it's all cool . .
Won't be stealing your corner, just hope others don't stainless steel it ;-}
Cheers mate


wallwombat

4-Feb-2008
12:11:39 AM

Maccciza, if you can make it safely across the Valley of the Brown Snakes and through the Lair of the Badger, it's all yours.

They wont stainless steel it. The access is to difficult. It involves walking.


rodw

4-Feb-2008
7:48:39 AM

Ive seen said crack...no chance of anyone steelling it. ...those Badgers are scary.


HM33

4-Feb-2008
8:32:25 AM

>They wont stainless steel it. The access is to difficult. It involves
>walking.

Indeed. You make it sound like we have no energy when in fact bundy and I have actually stood underneath this crack system (without climbing gear gear at the time). I cant imagine anyone would bolt it, but all bolters, it seems, have low ethics so you never know. It may make an ok trad route.

like any project you don't have to keep off it but i think if you knew someone was actively trying it it might be nice to give them a chance to do it. Although it was interesting watching the dueling FA attempts on Cobra Crack.

mikl law

4-Feb-2008
8:45:54 AM

On 3/02/2008 nmonteith wrote:
>I reckon people who feel its ok to steal other routes have never spent
>a day wire-brushing bird shit and lichen off a new route for hours on end.

Indeed - I'll fess up and say I spent a grand total of 7 hours cleaning Grasshopper (50m M5 in the Grose) and am trying it now. Most of the people who could steal it would cruise it onsight (and thus not significant to them), but it will be hard for me and will probably involve a few attempts and some falling on dodge gear before I do it.(if it ever stops raining)

On another note, I was working an unprotected arete on the boulder below Big Top and was getting fairly close (had spent 1 hour brushing it too). The Blackheath locals thought I had no right to call it a project despite the emount of chalk I'd left on it, but no one wanted to do it as it stood. By this rationale, they decided they had to bolt it.

There are 157 messages in this topic.