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Who is responsible for bad belaying?

certifi

18-Nov-2007
11:13:56 AM

the slaughter continues...... im in way pointing the blame at anyone person, nore am i completly diverting
the blame from myself. all parties involved are at fault. i do agree that the climbing in a little crowded
gym is a little silly and honestly we shouldnt have, but it being andreas last day in australia we chose to
make that exception and take the risk. shane your post is like the blind leading the severly visualy
impaired. i am in no way saying my technique or myself is perfect, to understand my post that way is a
huge misconception. i think that yes my technique could use work but i also think that the level it is at is
beyond capable and safe. Whoever said that i should have caught him better is full of crap, the fact of
the matter is that andrea was clipping so there was to much rope in the system and i put this down to the
reason he fell so far, it my fault i didn't get out of the way. im going to stop here and ask that this thread
be closed because its turned to member bash rather than a forum


Macciza

18-Nov-2007
5:44:11 PM

Dude - I'm with you -everyone and no-one is to blame - shit happens and there are no guarantees . . .
And hey people have different concepts of safety - I have had things explained to me as safe that are
quite bizarre in both good and bad ways.
Climbing I have to taje responsibility for myself - if I leave the ground I accept the consequences -
whatever my belayer does is up to him and whatever happens happens - no regrets, no second guess.
Belaying I assume co-responsibilty for my climber to do the best I can in the circumstances and
attempt to give adequate safety to the climber despite numerous unknown variable in the system.In
both situation I realise things can go completely wrong - totally different to the anticipated result and
accept that . . .
Sometimes things get f#@ked up - climber facing arving 10m pendulum fall from above roof to wall
below and all you can do is guestimate distances and vectors from 20m below hope there is not a fall
and plan on paying out gobs and gobs of slack and prepaing to give a massively dynamic belay -
believe me this is a situation does happened
Work out where you may have gone wrong and plan to avoid any repeat . . .
I won't even start on the gym's complicitness in this whole sordid affair as it is far too complex . . .


Joad

19-Nov-2007
10:21:46 AM

wow, get to work on monday and this thread has really taken off.

In reply to Certifi,

In my opinion from what I have seen of your belaying, there are definitely aspects of poor technique that should be rectified. Most of what you said about noise, distraction etc has been discussed already, so I won’t go into that.

On 17/11/2007 certifi wrote:
i
>think that without correct understanding of my belaying technique you
>have no right to point the finger
>at me and taking a stab at my belaying technique because you don't understand
>what i am doing. i
>take offence to the fact that you think i am a novice climber, having
>been trained by some of
>australias heavy weights and having trained hard and long to improve technique,

Firstly I don’t think you are a novice climber, you climb well from what I have seen. Nor am I attacking you personally, incorrect belaying is something I have seen to much of in gyms and I was asking what people thought of it regarding responsibility. Your accident was just a pertinent and timely example to use, note that I did not name the gym or any climbers.

>i think that i deserve
>a sorry from your self after your relentless attacks at myself and my
>ways.
stop hiding under an ip
>address and come and talk to
>me personally, thats just how id prefer to talk to you. as i said earlier
>it was noones fault except fates.

Secondly I have spoken to you personally before when you and your partner traversed in front of my belayer, whilst I was climbing and he was close to the wall. In fact my belayer asked both of you not to traverse in front of him, your partner ignored him and pushed into him whilst he was belaying. Remember me?

If you do I would be happy to discuss with you belaying or climbing. I generally do not speak directly to belayers I consider to have bad technique unless it is immediately and severely dangerous, as I feel it is taken better from a member of the gym staff.

Thirdly blaming fate is a cop out, taking responsibility (not that I believe you were entirely responsible for this particular accident) shows humility, something which the ‘heavyweights’ of climbing have not yet taught you, and is a fantastic way to learn from your mistakes.

Finally I apologise if you have taken or take personal offense to what I have written, it was never intended as a personal attack on you.


kezza

19-Nov-2007
11:41:40 AM

I have to say that as a staff member of a gym, correcting bad belaying of 'regulars' or even newbies often falls upon deaf ears!
So you can understand the frustration when you ask the same person to correct their belaying multiple times in 3 hours.
Newbies think they know it all because they've been at the gym for more than 10 minutes. 'Regulars' believe they know it all and sloppy belaying is okay because they know the consequences.

Regulars, listen up, the sloppy belaying is not on. letting go of the break end is not on, the newbies look up to you guys because you can climb to the top. They copy your belay techniques and it's just a vicious cycle.

Take responsibility for your actions, so many shit belayers in the gym that often it feels useless to correct it!
Regular climbers answer me with "yeah yeah" newbies usually put up an arguement why they're belaying is better! Just belay properly it really isn't any harder then belaying shitfully.


AlanD

19-Nov-2007
11:51:39 AM

On 19/11/2007 Joad wrote:
>If you do I would be happy to discuss with you belaying or climbing. I
>generally do not speak directly to belayers I consider to have bad technique
>unless it is immediately and severely dangerous, as I feel it is taken
>better from a member of the gym staff.

Yep fully agree. Advise a staff member who you know has good belaying technique to correct the technique with an experienced or semi experienced climbers. With beginners, I'll approach them as beginners are generally more willing to accept assistance with any aspect of climbing. In addition, I'll quietly ask that same staff member to have a close look at a new climbing partner's belaying technique during the session, if I haven't seen them belay someone else.


matt

19-Nov-2007
11:57:19 AM

I've gotta say that when i climb with a new belayer, i tell them what I like in belaying and give them a chance to adjust. Currently my house mate has just started climbing (gym only) and was doing better (within 1 hour at cliff) then other people I've climbed with for months.

To that note, I've stopped climbing particular climbs with a certain person because they simply do not pay attention. Bit hard when you need slack in or out and the person is completely busy chatting with someone and the only way to get there attention is to whip them with the rope.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

19-Nov-2007
12:42:09 PM

After following this thread for a while I must admit to being rather stunned by the numerous mentions of poor belaying technique that people refer to regularly having seen (particularly in gyms), and wonder as to why this phenomenon is so/or increasing?

If it was outdoors and we were talking about rising levels of poor pro placement it would be equally alarming, but even with good pro placement by a leader, it is worth nothing if the belaying does not match the same standard!

It really isn't that hard and it is vital to the climbers safety (and belayer safety often also).

I would hate to think 'authorities' would ever be justified in restricting our activities (includes gyms), based on poor/lazy technique leading to mishap, and have been around long enough to have seen similar intervention in the past.

I don't frequent gyms but if I observe poor belaying happening in the outdoors I consider it a responsible thing for anyone who has the required knowledge to offer constructive advice.
In my experience it has been well received, but even if it weren’t, ... at least that persons conscience would be clear if called before a coronial enquiry!

Are gyms so $ oriented perhaps that they are not prepared to enforce their ‘safety rules’?
... if this the case then what price does insurance run to after mishap??


Dom

19-Nov-2007
1:59:49 PM

I too have struggled to understand the rationale for draw placements at Verve...


Joad

21-Nov-2007
11:22:13 AM

I think if you fell trying to clip the third one up you would hit the deck, but it isn't that high. Still...

certifi

21-Nov-2007
12:19:09 PM

yes i remember our run in, i also remember getting off when your belayer asked me two. my partners prehaps 'irresponsible'
actions speak in no way for my own. i think that you have witnessed very little of my climbing and belaying, and speak un-
reasonably and un-justifiably of (if not specifically named) myself. why do you consider it dangerous to give constructive
criticism directly, if witnessing bad technique. wouldnt it be more dangerous to leave it to the prehaps "blind" eyes of
particular gym staff? staff that may not know the difference between "Good" and "Bad" technique....... As stated SEVERAL
times im in no way saying it wasnt at all my fault, merly that it was a combination of several factors that led to the mayby
avoidable accident. fate was used as a keyword for a particular action taken by a particular person (un named of course). i
do not wish to speak to you on either of the matters (unless you would like to), i just hope that in the future you realise your
power and responsibility as a climber to point out dangerous doings to people that may not be as skilled or informed as
yourself. i think to say im not humble is a bit rude, you dont know me. humility is one of my strong points as well as being
able to stick up for myself and what i believe. as some of you see it on this forum as my responsibility to accept it as my
fault i agree and disagree. i think that i should have realised earlier that some fault may be my own i also have a personal
feelings to up hold. being blasted and pushed into a corner by a bunch of people australia wide (on purpose or not) is a bit
daunting for a sixteen year old. it makes you want to give up then and there. if i let you (you meaning a wider community) to
walk all over me i may as well walk away. i am just defending myself not escaping responsibility. i did take offence to things
you have said as its prity obvious (but in a very underhanded way) to me that you were talking about myself. in the future
when pointing out "just a pertinent and timely example[s]" be a little less specific and detailed to avoid personal offence to
any persons involved. i guess ill see you round

certifi

21-Nov-2007
12:37:20 PM

in reply to BP and Bob. my eye is fine thanks. i consider myself to have a solid understanding of
dynamic belaying techniques. i have been trad leading for around 14 months now and have done around
twenty five outdoor leads in both the gramps, araps, camels hump and werribie up to about grade 17-18.
i have climbed as large as 6 pitch climbs and have done allot of single pitch climbing. i dont for a second
think that i know everything, i understand there is allot to learn and a long time to learn it properly. bob
what do you mean "formal outdoor training"? like certificates of something? in which case no, but as i
said before i have been trading a while and believe im more than competent. i try to get outdoors as
much as possible. although with exams i havnt in about 6 weeks, but i will hopefully this weekend.

in reply to the caving guy, i know what you mean about no communication and wind and all that stuff, iv
experienced it outdoors and its quite scary. but you dont expect it in a gym is all i was saying.


nmonteith

21-Nov-2007
12:40:07 PM

don't stress too much certifi - i have no idea who you are, as do most of the people reading this i
imagine!


zumojugo

21-Nov-2007
12:53:23 PM

This discussion is fascinating and informative on so many levels.


steph

21-Nov-2007
1:18:18 PM

On 21/11/2007 certifi wrote:
>humility is one of my strong points

you forgot to mention modesty.

lol


IdratherbeclimbingM9

21-Nov-2007
1:22:00 PM

Oi! ~ Dems fightin words!
8-X
Heh, heh, heh.

certifi

21-Nov-2007
2:12:49 PM

you guys have no souls....steph. i dont mind about my rep, people can think what they like. neil im not
stressing, its just hard not to feel like your being burnt alive sometimes

widewetandslippery

21-Nov-2007
2:18:02 PM

Thats satan burning you from the inside out for dropping someone. He wants to make you feel warm inside. Satan has a hard on for bad belayers, they keep hell stocked full of souls.


Joad

21-Nov-2007
2:41:47 PM

Hey Certifi,

You seem to be misconstruing/misunderstanding what I’m saying and are getting a bit defensive, which is easy to do over the net or on e-mail because you cannot see/hear the person’s intonation. You are also misquoting me, which is a tad irritating, but I’ll get over it.

If I see you in the gym I’ll come up and apologise for you feeling that this began as a personal attack, this was not my intention. Like Niel says no-one know who you are so don’t feel crucified, you are not being put to the stake for all belayers who ever had a little bad technique (from the isolated incidences I have witnessed).


nmonteith

21-Nov-2007
3:07:27 PM

My 2cents. As a lead climber it is YOUR responsibilty to be happy with your belayer, to talk to them
about potential problems, give them a warning about a fall - even to tell your belayer to get in closer to
the cliff. I find i am always instructing my belayer to get in a better position. The belayer is just an
employee - the leader is the boss. If it all goes up to shit you'll be thanking your lucky stars you had a
belayer at all most likley. 99% of the time its the leaders fault that an aciddent happened - as they are
the ones who fell off in the first place! Just like gear can pop out of placemnts, you can flip upside down
in a fall or you get rope burn - an inperfect belay will and does happen. Its just part of the climbing game.
This particlur incident being discussed seems to be an example of a successful belay in my opinion. The
leader fell, the belayer stopped him from dieing or being badly injured. Done. Move on....


bluey

21-Nov-2007
3:16:05 PM

The highlight of this thread appears to be the 16 year old's extreme reaction to the PERCEIVED rejection/criticism by his climbing peers.

Certifii, even if it was true that the climbing community has turned against you - if you're happy with what went down at the gym and your skills, ignore them! Your stream-of-consciousness long-winded responses show you're way too worried about what's posted on the web by a bunch of procrastinating climbing addicts.

Well, I'm procrastinating anyway....

There are 83 messages in this topic.