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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 83
Author
Who is responsible for bad belaying?

anthonyk
15-Nov-2007
2:48:19 PM
the climber and the belayer also have a responsibility to the people that run the gym- if they hurt themselves the gym is going to be pretty affected by it. so its fair enough for people to have to follow whatever the gym people ask them to do even if its silly to them, and likewise the gym attendants should be pretty strict because they've got a responsiblity to the owners of the place.

bluey
15-Nov-2007
4:57:23 PM
On 15/11/2007 ado_m wrote:
>Great thread.
>
>Re "duty of care", I think that Hardrock in the city is close to breaching
>its duty regarding maintaining the wall against excessive spinning holds.

Apologies for diverting the thread further, but I just wanted to note that I raised this very issue in the "Hardrock city open at last" whatever thread and was waiting for Hardrock themselves to respond. I think they would be in deep legal do-do if someone was injured after falling from a spinning hold. And there are about a billion witnesses (no I don't exagerate) who can state the high number of spinners and length of time that this has been going on.

anthonyk
15-Nov-2007
5:19:38 PM
On 15/11/2007 bluey wrote:
>On 15/11/2007 ado_m wrote:
>>Great thread.
>>
>>Re "duty of care", I think that Hardrock in the city is close to breaching
>>its duty regarding maintaining the wall against excessive spinning holds.
>
>Apologies for diverting the thread further, but I just wanted to note
>that I raised this very issue in the "Hardrock city open at last" whatever
>thread and was waiting for Hardrock themselves to respond. I think they
>would be in deep legal do-do if someone was injured after falling from
>a spinning hold. And there are about a billion witnesses (no I don't exagerate)
>who can state the high number of spinners and length of time that this
>has been going on.

same goes for SICG. i'm concerned about one of them falling out and landing on someone. people have implied that can't happen but i don't see why not, they get pretty loose. i've also pointed out loose holds in the middle of a high roof & people haven't seemed too concerned, and on at one occasion had a big handle hold pull right off in my hand.

userfriendly
15-Nov-2007
5:19:59 PM
maybe in a gym they should have little feet painted on the ground so as the belayer can use them as a guide as to where to be standing.(for the day goer's)
But in no way should it be a gyms fault if you have a lead fall i think, because you are getting on the serious side of climbing if you start leading.
Its not just going for the day for a bit of fun, you should know whats going on by then... always stressed that climbing is at your own risk. I just had an accident and blame myself.

Macciza
15-Nov-2007
5:41:46 PM
Who's responsible? Everyone involved . . .
But these days most climbers get taught in the gym and the staff aren't always experienced belayers
themselves and often are not very good instructors either
Most belayers these days are atrocious with no idea of a dynamic belay or belay dynamics either.
I always find it best to not fall off if the belayer is not up to scratch - avoid a scene that way . .

anthonyk
15-Nov-2007
6:01:27 PM
On 15/11/2007 Macciza wrote:
>Most belayers these days are atrocious with no idea of a dynamic belay
>or belay dynamics either.

hmm.. one thing to be careful of, if someone's belaying with a grigri and there's a low first bolt, if you jump to make a soft catch and get lifted into the first draw it can stop the grigri from functioning and the climber to get dropped. (just thought i'd mention while i thought of it)

Macciza
15-Nov-2007
6:45:49 PM
On 15/11/2007 anthonyk wrote:
>On 15/11/2007 Macciza wrote:
>>Most belayers these days are atrocious with no idea of a dynamic belay
>>or belay dynamics either.
>
>hmm.. one thing to be careful of, if someone's belaying with a grigri
>and there's a low first bolt, if you jump to make a soft catch and get
>lifted into the first draw it can stop the grigri from functioning and
>the climber to get dropped. (just thought i'd mention while i thought of
>it)
>
yep and there are heaps of other variables to try to take into account . . .
hipster
15-Nov-2007
6:50:01 PM
Sorry but a thorough understanding of belaying practices and techniques takes time, a patient teacher, and plenty of time outdoors, something that used to happen before climbing gyms were "de riguer" and you'd go out with mates or do a proper outdoors course. You can't learn in 5 minutes in a crowded, noisy gym. Why should gym owners be responsible...bollocks I say.
Why all the mystery and awkwardness after an accident. If you're reading this and you've dropped someone through your incompetence then ,IMHO, you should walk away from climbing. In days gone by your mates would have enforced this anyway. Now you can just skulk into the gym and befriend someone else..
Nothing gave me the sh*ts more than a couple of years ago when a well-known climber dropped a mate. Nothing was said, anywhere, except their next comp results were promptly reported in the mags..

muki
15-Nov-2007
8:26:12 PM
On 15/11/2007 anthonyk wrote:

>hmm.. one thing to be careful of, if someone's belaying with a grigri
>and there's a low first bolt, if you jump to make a soft catch and get
>lifted into the first draw it can stop the grigri from functioning and
>the climber to get dropped. (just thought i'd mention while i thought of
>it)

How is that possible? the break hand should be on the rope, so even if the cam does not activate the
friction due to proper belaying will hold the fall, they are NOT recommended to be used with NO hand
on the breaking/belaying side of the devise.
that would be bad belay technique.

anthonyk
16-Nov-2007
12:07:13 AM
On 15/11/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>How is that possible? the break hand should be on the rope, so even if
>the cam does not activate the
>friction due to proper belaying will hold the fall, they are NOT recommended
>to be used with NO hand
>on the breaking/belaying side of the devise.
>that would be bad belay technique.

rtfm! ;) maybe you're right if they're holding the tail it'd be ok but petzl does warn about it in their manual, complete with pictograms and $!@# symbols (or just a skull and crossbones). note that normally when you're holding the tail it causes the mechanism to close, but if the mechanism is forced open its basically the same as threading the thing backwards, which causes plenty of accidents.
dalai
16-Nov-2007
8:54:40 AM
I'm with BP. There is a chance the cam on the foo foo can get opened if the device is pulled up to the first draw, but as you always have your hand on the brake rope the friction is sufficient to hold the climber like with any manual belay device.

The only accidents I've seen with this device is always the result of user error...

eisbear
16-Nov-2007
1:24:41 PM
Yep - all involved are responsible. Gyms are introducing many newbies to the sport so need to teach well and ensure others are demonstrating best practice. Climbers should be discerning in their choice of belayer if they wish to live long and prosper and belayers - you have someones life in your hands!
Stoopid things I have seen in gyms lately - belaying while sitting on your arse as your leader climbs a roof! Would have been interesting to see the consequences of a fall on the belayers back? As it was he simply gave his climber tight rope at a clip. Belayer talking on a mobile phone (toprope). Phones should be banned from gym floor. Belayer with hair caught in device (top rope) because it was not tied back - newbie not warned? Darwin awards anyone?

westie
16-Nov-2007
5:04:22 PM
On 15/11/2007 ado_m wrote:

>In the UK, a good number of climbers have insurance.

Does anybody here have reasonable health insurance that covers their climbing as well? how much do you pay if you don't mind my asking?
certifi
17-Nov-2007
5:36:14 PM
id like to come to my own deffence here and say that it was not my fault (i was belaying). the music
was too loud at
the gym that night and there was just to many other distractions that particular night. My italian
climbing parter at the
time, sometimes just expects me too know when to take. he takes a quick glance at me and expects
me to know
what that means, at which point he lets go of the wall and drops. after he had made his indesiferable
nod at me, he
let go. i ran backwards to pull in slack and caught his falling mass on the way. after saying this, im not
pointing the
finger at my partner, there were just two many variables like noise, distractions, STUPID PLACMENT
OF DRAWS,
communication break downs and bad technique by my partner. I would also like to point out that he
was NOT six
meters high, he had just reached the fourth clip and was pulling rope to clip himself. the height at
which the draws are
placed at the cbd hardrock are a joke to say the least, it did not help that my climber was pulling rope
into the
system when he fell. I pride myself on good belaying technique and have been lead climbing for
around two years of
solid three night a week training. i also believe my self to be one of the more competent belayers at
the gym. this is
not me talking it up, its mearly pointing out that i believe myself to have good belaying technique, and
believe me
there are some real bad belayers around. i think that after all this it is wrong to say anyone was to
blame. it was a
mixture of deadly (controlable) variables. and you have your facts wrong. case closed

PS Joad mate step back and reevaluate what you have said about me, YES i have been know to
stand along way from the wall, but im under the understanding that some times its good to break the
rules. for example i consider it necisary and safe to step back a little further than against the wall, i
happen to think that visability is the one key factor to good and safe belaying. when your technique or
the climbers safety is at risk it is ok to move back providing the climber is at a safe height to do so. i
think that without correct understanding of my belaying technique you have no right to point the finger
at me and taking a stab at my belaying technique because you don't understand what i am doing. i
take offence to the fact that you think i am a novice climber, having been trained by some of
australias heavy weights and having trained hard and long to improve technique, i think that i deserve
a sorry from your self after your relentless attacks at myself and my ways. no one technique can work
for everybody and i believe that slight re-adjustment of the advised technique is within reason. I firmly
believe im an adiquete belayer as do my two partners. if you dont like it say it to my face instead of
internet bitching about you not liking how i do things, but that doesnt mean i will listen. I think that the
staff need better training and more understanding of leadclimbing. some didnt even know what it is
untill i explained it to them. I used to be regular at nunawading untill i moved house and i think that
people like taruna need to come to the city more often. i dont think that the staff are capable of
checking off lead climbers, having witnessed one guy trying to tell two guys who clearly had been
climbing longer than he was alive how to lead. stop hiding under an ip address and come and talk to
me personally, thats just how id prefer to talk to you. as i said earlier it was noones fault except fates.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that if neither the belayer, climber or gym staff really know what
they are doing, what should be done to rectify this. i think your right about the staff but that you have
me completly misundderstood.

i also dont care if you think my spelling is bad

PreferKnitting
17-Nov-2007
7:54:23 PM
Sorry to sound harsh but certifi you're post just sounds like 'it's not my fault it was everything and everyone elses fault for the accident, I'm perfect'

I imagine you're probably feeling defensive because people are blasting and on a public forum as well but after coming to your own defence see if you can see it all from everyone elses perspective.

maybe some of them have even more experience than your three solid years of climbing.

Keep things in perspective.. at least you didn't kill him, and be humble and learn from this situation.

Maybe be honest about what happened so that everyone can learn from this situation. Give us some insights into what you might do from here.

By the way, if you're a hard core climbing, why you climbing at the city gym?? everyone knows it's built for noobies : ) Just stiring

cruze
17-Nov-2007
8:34:33 PM
certifi: If your climbing partner falls and hits you then that doesn't mean you necessarily stuffed up. Stuffing up is thinking that 2 years of climbing in a gym makes your technique perfect.

Music too loud? What about if you were climbing at point perp and having to deal with the sounds of the crashing waves, or up high on the bluffs with the wind around your ears. It's just one of those things.

As for running back to catch your leader. Probably more trouble than it is worth esp with a high first draw and plenty of people in the gym to trip over. Imagine if you were multipitching and are anchored to the cliff...

If you aren't comfortable with your climbing partner constantly lobbing off when they climb then maybe tell them or refuse to climb with them. Getting used to the way different climbers climb is part of climbing as well.

In the end, I ain't perfect. Far from it ,I don't mean to sound like I am preaching. I choose my climbing partners carefully.

On another note, I reckon leading in crowded gyms is just stupid - especially on climbs near vertical. More problems than it is worth.
SHANESHAW
17-Nov-2007
8:48:30 PM
I have been only climbing since June this year and I am still a learner. I have held a few lead falls sofar and I can say that if people do not concentrate they can drop their partner. I am a big guy 125kg so I can hold falls quiet easily. I have myself observed people standing too far away when belaying just to give them a better view of the climber.

I believe any person who is belaying and won't take any blame is kidding themselves. I state that if you are belaying your partner , then you and only you are responsible for his life and holding him should he fall. Who gives a shit if there is a little runout between draws or he didn't tell u he was falling. If you can't belay and hold someone because there is distractions then give it up.

2 years of belaying and this happened, well I can only say don't belay because you aren't very good. If it was me I would have given you a broken nose also for not belaying me properly.

No wonder people die.

muki
17-Nov-2007
8:55:27 PM
How's the eye Certifi?, I think that the situation you have described, ie leader pulls out extra rope to
clip and then takes a dive, is always tough for the belayer, especially if close to a ledge or the ground,
2 years of indoor 3 nights a week is a good intro into belaying sport climbs, but a trad lead with wires
close to the start would unzip if you were standing too far back, and trad sometimes needs a dynamic
belay (but that's another whole chapter), or a soft catch to save the gear, sometimes you need to short
rope the belay to prevent a ledge from taking out your leader, but this has to be evaluated against the
harm that could come from the short rope.
So it not easy to master as a skill set until you have been shown, and practise and learn!
Can't learn anything if you think you have learnt all there is to know.
PS. a noisy gym is just good practise for lack of communication skills on a windy multi pitch.
And a good belayer is never distracted! I've once had a copper head (snake)show up under me when
belaying and still managed to pay out slack and move to a safer location without distracting the leader!

bob
17-Nov-2007
9:09:06 PM
Your profile indicates you climb Trad Single and multi?
Do you have any formal outdoor lead training? Or what’s your background? How often?

Ok I had typed about 2 paragraphs but I I cant spell very well and use word and it takes time and in that time 3 other people put up posts witch said what I was going to very well so I wont bother aside from my questions at the top (for my benefit) and to say that I highly support the last 3 posts.

AlanD
17-Nov-2007
10:21:15 PM
Although a different situation, my original training / introduction to belaying was for caving but occurred outside on a cliff face. The set up was a top belay around the body with no mechanical device, with a 60kg weight being hauled up from below and out of out of sight. The haulers would then without warning drop the haul rope and you were expected to catch and hold the falling weight.

No visual or audible is something you be prepared for when belaying in any situation. The feel of what's happening with the rope is critical in any belaying situation, caving top roping or leading. Good communication obviously makes things easier as does being able to see what the climber is doing, but you should alway be set for the climber to fall.

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