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Advice on lowering from a bolt..


Richard

10-Sep-2007
1:13:33 PM

6 = 3 + 3 ie screwgate = 2 reversed quick draws.

use whatever your happy to loose.

don't lower (directly off the bolt) or simul rap - it doubles the weight

cheers

widewetandslippery

10-Sep-2007
1:18:20 PM

the mallion idea is good. I like it.

BUT

Do you really go climbing with such an expectation of failure?

and yes even if the biner fell 250m+ if backed up first go I'll wing it by itself second go.


wallwombat

10-Sep-2007
1:33:50 PM

On 10/09/2007 widewetandslippery wrote:
>the mallion idea is good. I like it.

Me too. Might get one for that purpose.

I have and old, small, steel scewgate biner that I occasionally clip to the back of my harness for such purposes but I've had it so long now (15 years) that I'm quite attached to it. Might get a small mallion to replace it.

SHANESHAW

10-Sep-2007
3:26:19 PM

On 10/09/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>On 10/09/2007 SHANESHAW wrote:
>>I like what you said mate, I suppose I could have used a bolt plate and
>>a screw gate but I used the 2 draws because I didn't want one to fail
>so
>>I used 2 and reversed them as the books say.
>
>If you trust a screwgate as your absiel or belay biner, then you should
>be able to trust one as a single
>point lower-off.
>
>> The bolt was a glued in bolt
>>and was a bomber anchor
>
>How do you know it was a bomber bolt? Did you test it fully? Good looking
>bolts can be bad. The
>surface glue may have cured but the glue under the surface may have never
>set. Always be vigilent
>about lowering off a single bolt.
>
>> and I lowered my partner down slowly and with no
>>jerking. The same when he lowered me .
>
>I think my understanding of physics is that lowering actually DOUBLES
>the amount of wieght applied
>to the anchor, as you are now hanging two people off the single bolt.
>This is bad!

I was doing s tanding belay from behind a large boulder so my weight was not on the bolt. if the bolt had failed when i was lowering I was in a position where i would be able to hold and lower him.


nmonteith

10-Sep-2007
3:38:36 PM

Your weight was on the bolt - because you are effectivly simul-rapping when you lower someone. His
weight is offset by your wieght on the other side - which means you double the force applied to the
anchor (well, with rope friction ect its probaly not double but its certainly more than a single person
abseiling by themselves). Simple concept that is not obvious until you think about it a little more.


nmonteith

10-Sep-2007
3:48:39 PM

p.s. if you still wanted the big boulder 'backup' plan I would have fixed the rope to the bolt, then run a
loose end to you standing begind the boulder, so if the bolt fails the weight would then be transferred to
your bodgy body belay. The person would absiel down the fixed rope.

dalai

10-Sep-2007
4:28:16 PM

On 10/09/2007 mousey wrote:

>if you dont feel comfortable with that then a mallion or single screwgate
>will make it bomber.*

*As bomber can be, trusting a single anchor!


nmonteith

10-Sep-2007
4:30:24 PM

On 10/09/2007 mousey wrote:
>havent bothered reading the rest of the posts

Maybe take the time to read it Josh - you just repeated the same thing that at least three others have
written!


cruze

10-Sep-2007
4:34:03 PM

How many of the people that are suggesting the wire over the carrot then flick it trick have actually used this technique - or would use this technique? We all know that it is an option but if you find yourself in this situation are you seriously going to care about a $5 bolt plate?

As for being from a different economic 'universe' do you ever question how much you spend on beer, petrol, take away food? False economy my friend.

dalai

10-Sep-2007
4:37:59 PM

Good point Cruze. I think it is more important is to make new climbers wary of relying on a single anchor rather than how they attach to said single anchor...


nmonteith

10-Sep-2007
4:38:27 PM

I'd just leave a plate and snap-link biner. I've got plenty of old ones at home to replace it. The only time
ive rapped off hero loops was when doing lots of absiels on a new route alpine big wall when we only
carried 6 hangers which had to last 13 pitches!


mousey

10-Sep-2007
4:58:13 PM

On 10/09/2007 cruze wrote:
>How many of the people that are suggesting the wire over the carrot then
>flick it trick have actually used this technique - or would use this technique?

used both this & hero loops quite a bit, but its not really a cost of gear thing for me... i dunno.
id certainly never try pass it off as anything other than dodgy!

i definitely agree with martin, the unknown in the system is the anchor bolt & its something that no amount of experience (other than sound knowledge of the FA's trends/habits i suppose)
can give us any real insight to what lurks beneath the surface of the rock.


cruze

10-Sep-2007
5:09:05 PM

On 10/09/2007 mousey wrote:
>can give us any real insight to what lurks beneath the surface of the
>rock.
That sounds like a kick ass theme for a movie - something in the same vein as 'what lies beneath'. I am thinking horror/sci-fi starring Christopher Walken and Steve Buscemi. They venture deep into the rock and discover a bizarre world inhabited by gnomes that used to be employed stealing underpants but have now resorted to pushing out carrot bolts when people use them to bail off routes... Anyone with me?

dalai

10-Sep-2007
5:11:38 PM

Even if you know who placed the gear... With a glue in bolt - even if the person has a history of placing good bolts, issues such as old glue, incorrectly mixed glue are just two variables which can vary between each placement and this bolt could be the one out of them all which may fail prematurely!

Carrots are an even more inexact science! Look at some of the photos of replaced carrots on the Safer Cliffs site to see how short and feeble many of these can be!


wallwombat

10-Sep-2007
5:29:28 PM

Good thing all these people weren't there, on the ground, giving you advice at the time; you'd still be up there.

dalai

10-Sep-2007
5:30:51 PM

No, they would have probably fixed a rope from good anchors at the top of the climb and let them abseil down that!


wallwombat

10-Sep-2007
5:59:27 PM

It was getting dark, dalai. If it was that easy they could have stayed on their route rather than traversing to the bolt and lowered off a few solid pieces and then gone to the top, rapped down and retrieved their gear.

mikepatt

10-Sep-2007
6:19:27 PM

I tried to clip a couple of biners thru a selection of bolt plates at home. As far as I could see if you reverse the top biners then the gate of one of those biners will be against the wall which doesn't sound like a good idea. I've never heard of two biners thru one bolt plate being used and think it's probably more dangerous than one. However always be wary of using skiner biners. Best to use a fat biner or a cheap screw gate made from 11mm stock.
However if you climb in the Blue Mountains it's advisable to;
a) Back off on as much new gear as you can rig up.
and b)post details of where you left the gear on a website as soon as you get home.


MrKyle

10-Sep-2007
7:31:40 PM


Macciza

10-Sep-2007
7:46:06 PM

Jeez - what is it with climbers today? 'Every' glue-in needs to be tested? All carrots suck? Man up!
The loads you are putting on the stuff are miniscule! 2kN at most - a rurp or 2 RP would hold it!

I assume both people were siting on the bolt at some point before rapping - therefore they have
effectively tested it to slightly over 2 body weights -with movement lets say 200 kg.
So he lowers the climber the load is slightly less than 2 BW due to lowering rate -
2 people simulrapping is exactly the same except more fun and you can talk on the way down you
both get down quicker and can walk out earlier and if it goes wrong neither of you are left with a dead
mate. The extra weight is really not an issue - the wire rated at ~10kN the bolts probably good for 20 -
neither of them is very likely to get pushed off or out by a subterrainian gnome! Doubling up on biners
is rarely necessary IMHO whatever the books say and if using a mallion don't use one that's too thin

Does anyone else on this forum actually know how to sit on a drawed carrot and still put a wire on the
bolt take of the draw and bolt plate then rap? (Edi:t apart from Josh and Kyle)

And for godsakes people if it were a nice shiny ring surely you would just thread it and simulrap if you
were both sitting on it?

Every time a bolt gets fallen on it is essentially being load tested - if it is there when you get there and
it does not fall out when you both sit on then I think you could pretty much say it is bomber!

Oh and as for the bad bolt photos referred to, half of them look like they would be fine to rap off - I'll
send you some shots of some 'real' bad bolts sometime.

God I can't believe how much crap has been said already to end up with this reaction from me and I'm
sorry if I have offended anyone . . .

There are 78 messages in this topic.