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12:26:57 PM
On 11/07/2007 BigMike wrote:

>WorkChoices will allow you to get more money for your work...

... true ... unless ur a wimp at negociating...

Eduardo Slabofvic
12:39:52 PM
On 11/07/2007 M10iswhereitsat. wrote:
>Dont foget the WMDz...

I thought about the "Words of Mass Delusion" for a while, but then decided that that one wasn't Johnny’s,
he borrowed that one from George.

My point is a lament at the complacency of Australians when we allow ourselves to lied to by our leaders
without calling them to account.

12:41:22 PM
Bob Saki
12:51:57 PM
I think this is my favourite example of duckspeak from the Iraq war

The Unknown

As we know,
There are known knowns,
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don’t know we don’t know.

- Feb 2, 2002, Dept. of Defense news briefing - Rumsfeld

12:58:36 PM
i agree with m10 (can't believe i said that..) and Bob.

im certainly no expert in the area but i like JH because he is an active leader, who is not afraid to do what he believes to be right even when a majority thinks otherwise. People like to pay out whoever is in charge and of course nothing will change that even if Rudd takes the reigns.
i must admit though rudd seems the most competitent labor leader in a long while. Useless Bracksy could learn a thing or two.....

Everyone makes mistakes and every politician lies - an occupational hazard i guess.

1:01:10 PM
On 11/07/2007 Sabu wrote:

>who is not afraid to do what he believes to be right even when
>a majority thinks otherwise.

Such as? Got any examples?

1:01:24 PM
Hooray for the Economy! that all we should worry about.

1:04:56 PM
On 11/07/2007 BigMike wrote:
>On 11/07/2007 Sabu wrote:
> >who is not afraid to do what he believes to be right even when
>>a majority thinks otherwise.
>Such as? Got any examples?
The iraq war?

1:06:10 PM

Thought you'd say that.

Despite protest marches in major cities at the outset, most people backed the initial incursion into Iraq. Largely because they believed the lies about WMDs and Saddam's connections to Al Qaeda. And, people were pissed off about 9/11 etc and wanted to have a barney with SOMEONE.

Then there was Howard saying in the last election that it wasn't in Australia's nature to ``cut and run'' (conveniently forgetting what happened at Gallipoli, Vietnam, etc).

The tide has changed since then but Howard is keeping our handful of troops there because he can't be seen to back down. He'll find some pretext to get them out ... word is, in February, after the election.

Eduardo Slabofvic
1:16:06 PM
On 11/07/2007 BigMike wrote:
>He'll find some pretext to get them out ... word is, in February, after the election.

I'll be able to add that to my list above.

1:20:39 PM
On 11/07/2007 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>On 11/07/2007 BigMike wrote:
>>He'll find some pretext to get them out ... word is, in February, after
>the election.
>I'll be able to add that to my list above.

Not caring about carbon emissions for 11 years, until it became an election issue
Not caring about broadband for 11 years, until it became an election issue
Not caring about the Aborigines for 11 years, until it became a way to go after Labor before the elections

1:39:18 PM
and this "great economy" has done so much for all of us.. housing affordability and household debt are at historic levels, so at the end of the day we are working harder with less free time and less security and it takes longer than ever to escape from that debt, if you ever do escape.

economics is all a bunch of waffle until you look at the end result, which is net hours worked and quality of work to achieve the end result such as owning their own home. sure there's some benefit in terms of affordability of manufactured goods but thats a tiny fraction of household expenses. the only ones that are really benefitting are those with investment incomes. this is a great incentive for people to work hard to escape from the shit fight, howards "aspirational" voters, but its a pipe dream not a model for a stable happy society.

people want to be better off than the next guy and do what ever seems to be best for them to get a step up on joe next door, but at the end of the day its only a handful that are really better off at all, the rest get worse conditions and larger debts. and of course it gets taken a step further and the quality of education gets cut unless you have big $$ to spend on fancy schools, making it harder for the unprivileged to get a start in life and ensuring children of wealthy families get the yellow brick road through life regardless of how untalented and dysfunctional they are. not by giving them the best chance to perform, but by reducing the ability of the less fortunate to realise their potential.

sounds like a class-based society to me, australia is meant to be free from all that.

1:42:30 PM
If you’re a baby-boomer JH’s great. You’re enjoying working in conditions that your parents fought for (through their unions), you’ve got your investment properties, so that you can retire when you’re 55, travel the world and spend your kids’ inheritance. However if you’re Sabu’s age your future’s likely to be very different. You won’t be able to buy a house till you’re in your late 30’s - and you’ll have to live with your parents to save up your deposit. Which bank will actually give you a home loan if you’re on a 12 month contract and have no job security? When you finish uni you’ll have a $30000 debt to repay, and if you ever want to change your career you will not be able to get Austudy.
You’ll have to pay ridiculous amounts for health cover which doesn’t even give you anything, as the conditions in most private hospitals are worse than in public ones (one nurse can have as many as 10 patients to look after, there are no doctors in the hospital – only on-call). There was a great doco on SBS a few weeks ago about the “ruling class” in America. Sure it’s great to be wealthy but at what cost? People working 3-4 jobs for $5/hour so that the wealthy can go to Gloria Jeans’ and have a cheap cup of coffee.

How many people are now working more than one job because they can’t pay their mortgages? How many couples can actually afford to have kids? How many can live off just one income? How many women get paid maternity leave? How many people can afford to pay for childcare? Instead of investing in the future of this country the government is selling off all the public assets. We are paying ridiculously high taxes compared to other countries, which should be invested in things such as education and health instead of fighting some bogus war in Iraq.

Eduardo Slabofvic
2:07:33 PM
hmmmm.......maybe it's time for change.

Hey! Wouldn't that be a great election slogan?

(there I go, showing my age again).
Bob Saki
2:10:00 PM
and wasn' that such a great result last time, we ended up with arguably the worst PM ever "St. Whitlam" :-P

2:17:50 PM
Little Johnny will have us believe that we must stay in Iraq to stop the flow of terror. Yet only 10% of violence in the country is attributed to Al Qaeda (US Gov. Stat.). The other 90% of violence is carried out by insurgents (persons opposed to the puppet government and coalition occupying forces). Western governments would have us believe that terrorists are everywhere and a very real threat to our way of life, even though more people have died in America from peanuts since 1968 than terrorists attacks world wide. Therefore peanuts pose a much greater risk to life.

2:39:13 PM
On 11/07/2007 n00bpwn3r wrote:

>Maybe a "WAR ON PEANUTS".

or pretzels:

that one nearly did the world a favour..

2:59:13 PM
One of my fav clips at the moment (it's a few years old)

They say the rebels in iraq fight for sadam,
thats bullshit i'll show why its totally wrong
Because if another country invaded the hood tonight
it'd be warfare through harlem and washington hieghts
I would'nt be fighting for Bush or white americas dream
I'd be fighting for my people and my own self esteem
i wouldn't fight for racist churches in the south
i'd be fighting to keep the occupation out...

and for some reason JH decided we needed to join this crusade? Just think about how much money
has been spent on weapons, speech writers, re-building shit we blew up. Such a waste.

US Iraq war has cost $260 billion so far (late 2006 figure before surge)

Lets divide that figure by the population of Iraq (was about 25 million before the war)

= thats $10,400 spent for EVERY man, woman and child in Iraq. Imagine how much food that is.... or
housing, computer equipment.

Lets divide the cost by the population of america (260 million). It has cost EACH and every person in
the USA $1000 to fight the war. Imagine if every poor kid got a bonus $1000 to spend on education,
food ect by the government.

It makes me sick every time i see a barrage of cruise missile being shot (those suckers cost a million
bucks a pop)

3:51:06 PM
Neil, n00bpwn3r, anthonyk and DaCrux have all summed up my feelings pretty goddamn well. but, what about higher education changes. now, if you have the money up front you can get a place with at least 10 UAI points less. if you have money, you get priveleges, we are not on an even wicket anymore. equality has wisped into the ether.
As a % of GDP, the amount of funding to our unis has droppped steadily over the last 10 years and teacher:ratios have risen dramatially. as a point of interest, the money harvard gets donated by benefactors is MORE than the government puts into our EVERY university in Australia.
unis are no longer teaching instituions, they are businesses. you are not a student, you are a customer. looking into the glass ball, i reckon it wont be long before a uni is sued for not 'selling' a good enough degree to someone who has coughed up a $100k.
we went through IR reforms before anyone else. the uni wanted me to sign an AWI. it gave me the benefit of cashing in my holidays BUT it also removed the current requirement for the university to formally investigate an allegation of academic misconduct. (i believe this requirement was needed to ensure the AWI's were 'adequate' in the governments eyes). if an allegation is made and the uni wants to get rid of you, they get rid of you. you'd never get a job anywhere again after being sacked for AM!

in the higher ed arena, and others (health?, work conditions?), we are turning into another version of the good ol' US of A. A good enough reason for me to want to change something!

4:13:34 PM
On 11/07/2007 GravityHound wrote:
>in the higher ed arena, and others (health?, work conditions?), we are
>turning into another version of the good ol' US of A. A good enough reason
>for me to want to change something!

or move to NZ.

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